Subject: List Noise Level

From: Michael Brennen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:56:57 -0500 (CDT)

I just got singed in private email for having sent the same unhelpful
response about guest howto, FAQ and list archives for the nth time.

The guest howto and FAQ were written precisely because of the frequency of
certain questions.  I wrote the guest howto over two years ago precisely
because guests were the single most common question on the list, and I got
tired of recreating the same responses over and over.  It is detailed and
takes time to answer. 

The guest howto, FAQ and docs included in the distribution are the
essential starting points for anyone having trouble.  Anyone on this list
for some time can attest that the vast majority of questions are
answerable with the guest howto and FAQ.  The mailing list archives are
another excellent resource for filling in the holes.  If people are not
willing/able to go over the established docs first, I have absolutely
nothing to say. 

If these resources are not well noted on the mailing list subscription,
they should be.  I've not subscribed in some time to see what is sent out. 

If you find something in your situation that is not covered in the
commonly available docs, please work with the document author and get your
new info added in so others can benefit from it. 

I was accused of adding little more than noise to the list.  I don't
pretend that the same info hasn't gone out over and over and over -- in
response to the same questions being asked over and over and over. 

If anyone has a good solution to answering the same questions without
sending the same information, do it.  If anyone wants to recreate the same
answers over and over again, do it.

I've sent my last. 

   -- Michael

---

From: Bob Luckin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 13:06:48 CDT

Michael,

> response about guest howto, FAQ and list archives for the nth time.
[...snip to save bandwidth...]
> response to the same questions being asked over and over and over. 

But that is not noise.  If you know the answer is in one of these sources,
you are providing a service to both the person you are responding to, and to
other new folks on the list, by pointing out the existence of these docs
publicly.

This is much more preferable than clogging the list with detailed answers
to the same old common questions again and again.  So you're also doing all
the old hands a service at the same time, by helping to keep the noise
level down.

I'm sure many of us understand and appreciate this.  Until the list server
is able to append this information to the end of every posting as a short
footer, this is the best way of getting it out.  So thanks, and please keep
up the good work !

Cheers, Bob

PS It would be interesting to know what are the most frequently asked
   questions these days.  I bet the directory listing problems (missing
   libraries and/or binaries) are right up there with the guestgroup items...
   (Mind you, there is some overlap between the two.)

---

From: Kent Landfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:20:07 -0500 (CDT)

# I'm sure many of us understand and appreciate this.  Until the list server
# is able to append this information to the end of every posting as a short
# footer, this is the best way of getting it out.  So thanks, and please keep
# up the good work !

Is this something people would want to see ?  On the end of every message
or once every couple day ? We can change the list parameters to make it
so. My guess is that people would rather Mike continue being helpful then
adding a footer to each message. If I'm wrong, let me know.

-- 
Kent Landfield                        Phone: 1-817-545-2502             
Email: [email-masked]             http://www.landfield.com/
Please send comp.sources.misc related mail to [email-masked].
Search the Usenet Hypertext FAQ Archive at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/

---

From: Michael Brennen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:33:00 -0500 (CDT)

I *much* prefer the footer, if Andy will do the deed. 

   -- Michael

---

From: "Philip Kearney III" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:32:41 -0400

On Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 2:20:07 PM, Kent Landfield <[email-masked]> wrote:

> # I'm sure many of us understand and appreciate this.  Until the list 
> # server is able to append this information to the end of every posting 
> # as a short footer, this is the best way of getting it out.  So thanks, 
> # and please keep up the good work ! 
>  

I thought that the reason we couldn't do the footer was because of the list 
server software that we are using.  I didn't think that ListProcessor(tm) by 
CREN supported automatic appending of footers to messages, not even in version 
8.0, but I could be wrong.  Also, I thought that we were going to put the 
guest howto and FAQ information in the welcome message that new subscribers 
get and ask them to read these before posting to the list.  Did we ever do 
that?

-phil

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philip Kearney III                mailto:[email-masked] 
Sr. Software Engineer             mailto:[email-masked]
System Administrator              finger [email-masked] for my PGP key
Ascend Communications, Inc.       
Client Software Engineering Group             
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Kent Landfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:42:28 -0500 (CDT)

OK. Before this goes too much further (I've already received 4 votes
for the footer...) Let's make it official... ;)  Let's vote and just
see what people want.  

I don't want to clutter up your mailboxes so please send me private mail 
and I will post a summary with the votes in a single message in a day or 
so.

Here is what we are voting on.

YES - NO Do you want to see the type of information Mike has been posting
         added as a footer to each message going to the list ?

---

From: Kent Landfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:47:04 -0500 (CDT)

# I thought that the reason we couldn't do the footer was because of the list 
# server software that we are using.  I didn't think that ListProcessor(tm) by 
# CREN supported automatic appending of footers to messages, not even in version 
# 8.0, but I could be wrong.  Also, I thought that we were going to put the 
# guest howto and FAQ information in the welcome message that new subscribers 
# get and ask them to read these before posting to the list.  Did we ever do 
# that?

It is in the welcome message but I'll have to check about appending a footer.
I thought it was possible in 8.0 (although I've never done it).  I could be
wrong.

---

From: Gregory A Lundberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT)

> I *much* prefer the footer, if Andy will do the deed. 

And pointers to the FAQs on the subscription greeting e-mail.  I just checked
my copy and, unless it's changed in the past few weeks, the greeting
currently only has the URLs for three web sites .. the FAQs themselves should
be added to the end with them.

---

From: Juergen Christoffel <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:09:34 +0200

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:20:07 -0500 (CDT)
   From: Kent Landfield <[email-masked]>

No, a one line footer might be of little help. Just like the one line
which caused that thread (Michael, I know you intend to be helpful and
I really appreciate that) but what actual help does it give?

   Look at the guest howto, FAQ and list archives in that order.

I can understand that someone gets frustrated by that response.
Where's the guest howto located? Where's the FAQ? Where are the list
archives? They are not distributed with the source (at least the last
time *I* looked for it they weren't) and I guess most people which are
(more or less desparately) looking for help just don't know where to
look for them either, so how helpful is such a line actually?

I'd rather have someone posting a short paragraph instead, maybe
something like:

   Look at the guest howto, FAQ and list archives in that order. You
   find the FAQ at http://www.cetis.hvu.nl/~koos/wu-ftpd-faq.html and
   it will direct you to the other documents too.

If the URL of the FAQ would fit into a one-line footer that would be
fine. If not, I guess the on-line footer would be of little help. So
maybe 

>>> The FAQ is at http://www.cetis.hvu.nl/~koos/wu-ftpd-faq.html <<<

would be a footer for all of us?

Cheers,

	--jc

---

From: Michael Brennen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:28:36 -0500 (CDT)

> I really appreciate that) but what actual help does it give?

Admittedly, probably nothing.  Sticking things in front of people's noses
hasn't worked yet; no reason to think it will in the future. 

I'm not trying to naysay everything; given the history, I just don't know
what will work. 

> look for them either, so how helpful is such a line actually?

If I put in a oneliner like above, I *ALWAYS* send that great blob of a
footer that describes how to get to every piece of it.

>    it will direct you to the other documents too.

Given history so far, this will probably cause little improvement.  If the
big footer I send doesn't do it, how effective will this be?

> would be a footer for all of us?

Can't hurt, might help in a few cases. 

   -- Michael

---

From: Kent Landfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:34:27 -0500 (CDT)

# I'd rather have someone posting a short paragraph instead, maybe
# something like:
# 
#    Look at the guest howto, FAQ and list archives in that order. You
#    find the FAQ at http://www.cetis.hvu.nl/~koos/wu-ftpd-faq.html and
#    it will direct you to the other documents too.

I was thinking about something like the following....

---------------
Before posting a question please check WU-FTPD assistance avaiable via:

   Latest WU-FTPD Software: http://www.academ.com/academ/wu-ftpd
   Guest Howto:             ftp://ftp.fni.com/pub/wu-ftpd/guest-howto
   WU-FTPD FAQ:             http://www.cetis.hvu.nl/~koos/wu-ftpd-faq.html
   WU-FTPD Resource Center: http://www.landfield.com/wu-ftpd/
   unsubscribe ?:   Email 'unsubscribe WU-FTPD' to [email-masked] 
---------------

---

From: Juergen Christoffel <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:59:23 +0200

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:28:36 -0500 (CDT)
   From: Michael Brennen <[email-masked]>

We never can know how effective it is, because we don't see the
questions which don't get asked. Those who look at the documents you
mention and find their answers don't show up in your accounting. Like
the traffic lights: you always remember the red ones, not the green
ones...

	--jc

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 26 Sep 1997 23:56:09 GMT

Pink elephants with an attitude inspired Kent Landfield <[email-masked]> to tell garfield.mail.wu-ftpd:
: # I thought that the reason we couldn't do the footer was because of the list 
: # server software that we are using.  I didn't think that ListProcessor(tm) by 
: # CREN supported automatic appending of footers to messages, not even in version 
: # 8.0, but I could be wrong.  Also, I thought that we were going to put the 
: # guest howto and FAQ information in the welcome message that new subscribers 
: # get and ask them to read these before posting to the list.  Did we ever do 
: # that?

: It is in the welcome message but I'll have to check about appending a footer.
: I thought it was possible in 8.0 (although I've never done it).  I could be
: wrong.

Basically, from experience with other mailinglists (like e.g. the redhat
lists where they add a footer and some others that send useful stuff on
subscription) they both won't stop FAQs, but please don't send a reminder
every couple of days.. those most in need of it either just subscribed or
are mailing without being subscribed AFAIK. On subscription they should
receive a short mail with the relevant unsub info and pointers to the most
used faqs/mailarchive/etc. Heck, I'll even write that if nobody else does..
It might include something along the lines of 'FAQs may not be answered..
check the FAQ lists first'... but there are probably a couple of compulsive
answering people here like me that can't stand a mail without a Re: :)
And nuking the first mail someone sends would probably also be useful, but
that's not an option most of us will like I guess :)

-- 
Perry Rovers ([email-masked])

---

From: "Denis N. Antonioli" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:06:19 +0200 (MET DST)

Good idea, but we good make it shorter since the Resource Center has all
the other links in it:

---------------
Before posting a question please check WU-FTPD assistance available via:

Also, should the 'unsubscribe' text be in the subject or the body of the
message?

Greetings,
	Denis N. Antonioli

--
  A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature
  replaces it with
       -- Tennessee Williams

---

From: Bob DeBula <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:24:14 -0400 (EDT)

> check the FAQ lists first'... 

I agree with Perry that sending them a message when they subscribe
containing the FAQ, howto, etc. pointers is the way to go. Then if they
can't be bothered and must post, they shouldn't take umbrage at
receiving a chiding reminder about same.  It might be useful to mark
the first message from a new subscriber with a signature indicating that
this is their first message to the list (dunno if LISTSERV posesses
such options). Then, if it is a FAQ question they can revel in having
to wade through a bunch of direct mail to them saying "this is in the
FAQ that was mentioned in the subscription message you were sent when
you subscribed to the list, please read the documentation *before*
sending questions to this list". :-)