Subject: re: Use of \DELETED in c-client

From: Steve Hole <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:38:37 -0600

On Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:42:21 -0600 Mark Crispin wrote:

> From: Mark Crispin
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:42:21 -0600
> Subject: re: Use of \DELETED in c-client
> To: Chris Newman <[email-masked]>,
>      c-client Interest List <[email-masked]>
> 
> Chris -
> 
>      A separate message discusses my contention that the IMAP protocol is not
> violated by c-client's usage of the \Deleted flag to mark .newsrc updates.

Agreed.

>      Until recently, c-client used the \Seen flag to mark .newsrc updates,
> much as you suggested.  This was changed to the \Deleted flag.  Terry will
> undoubtably offer a more detailed explanation, but in short the reasoning is
> this:
> 
>      What we call ``read'' in mail and what we call ``read'' in news are
> fundamentally different concepts.  In news, there is the extra semantic that
> what has been ``read'' is no longer part of the set of interesting messages
> that appears in the user's view by default.  This is done because in some
> newsgroups, there may be thousands of messages.
> 
>      In traditional newsreaders, reading and view-removal are closely tied
> together.  People who use such simple tools as rn read news in a fundamentally
> different way from how they read mail.
> 
>      In a basic sense, the way that messages in mail are removed from the view
> is by the mechanism of deletion and expunge.  Simply reading the messages does
> not remove them from the view.

Well, I think that we are coming to the nub of the rub (so to speak).  I think
that John, Chris and I fundamentally disagree with this view.   Perhaps we 
should take it up with Terry?

Anyway, I contend that view removal does not and should not have anything
to do with the physical manipulation of the messages.   \Delete implies 
physical deletion.   Changing the view to sort filter out \Seen messages
is entirely different.   I agree that filtering is a more difficult problem
for client interfaces to solve.   We spent a lot of time on it, and it still
isn't quite complete.   It is beautiful when you can do it though.   Having
paid the price I can understand why simple work arounds would be of 
interest.   

So, the remaining problem is this.   Can we get the \Seen flag interpretation
for News back to its original form.   I guess that I can live with the 
\Deleted form *as well*, but the \Seen must work right for ECSMail.   Terry, 
your thoughts please?

Cheers.
--
Steve Hole  		        Director of Research and Communications
ISA Corporation			mail:  [email-masked]
Suite 835, 10040 - 104 St.      phone: (403) 420-8081
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada       fax:   (403) 420-8037
T5J 0Z2

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:41:56 -0700 (PDT)

Steve,
I'm hoping to be able to offer some thoughts on this topic shortly (by the 
end of the day?) 

-teg