Subject: Pine 4.58 and "locked" inbox

From: Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:42:28 +0100 (MET)

Hi all,

I just try to find a way to "unlock" my INBOX file when the new messages
will arrive and they will be filtered by Pine filters. I'm just not
sure if I expressed this correctly, but I wonder why my inbox checker
("wmbiff") can't show the correct number of e-mails (set in the Pine
as INBOX) when Pine already moved these e-mails from INBOX to some
other folders? The INBOX file is empty, but as long Pine stays open as
long "wmbiff" (other mailbox checkers as well) show that there are
e-mails in the INBOX. But as soon as Pine exits the correct state is
updated. For me it looks like Pine holds the INBOX file status and
update it on the program exit.

Is there a way to set Pine to allow the INBOX file to be updated
without a necessity to quit Pine and run it again?

Regards,
Murphy

-- 
  __   __
  ||   ||
 -++- -++- --------------------------------------------------------
  ||\ /||  e-mail: [email-masked]           GG 107745
  ||   ||  Everything is possible - this is only a question of time
  \/564\/  --------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see: 
 http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:22:08 -0800 (PST)

*** Murphy ([email-masked]) wrote in the pine-info...:

:) I just try to find a way to "unlock" my INBOX file when the new
:) messages will arrive and they will be filtered by Pine filters. I'm
:) just not sure if I expressed this correctly, but I wonder why my inbox
:) checker ("wmbiff") can't show the correct number of e-mails (set in the
:) Pine as INBOX) when Pine already moved these e-mails from INBOX to some
:) other folders? The INBOX file is empty, but as long Pine stays open as
:) long "wmbiff" (other mailbox checkers as well) show that there are
:) e-mails in the INBOX. But as soon as Pine exits the correct state is
:) updated. For me it looks like Pine holds the INBOX file status and
:) update it on the program exit.

Murphy,

  What happens in practice is that messages are not being deleted from the
mailbox, they are being hidden. If you removed the filter you would see
all those message reappering in the index (maybe in another session of
Pine), with the "D" next to them.

:) Is there a way to set Pine to allow the INBOX file to be updated
:) without a necessity to quit Pine and run it again?

Not sure if this would work, by try pressing "X" (for expunge) in the
inbox. If that doesn't work (because there are no messages in the inbox),
send a message to yourself, delete it and expunge it. Does that work?

Eduardo
http://www.math.washington.edu/~chappa/pine/

---

From: Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:42:01 +0100 (MET)

>Pine), with the "D" next to them.

Yes, you are right - pine filter the messages into proper folders, but
it didn't remove the sources as long as it is opened. I opened the
second pine from which I could see this same INBOX and the message had
a two states "N" and "D" even if from the first pine the message was
already deleted.

So, is there a way that pine could move these messages and remove the
source after filters will finish its job?

>send a message to yourself, delete it and expunge it. Does that work?

I try it, and there is no difference. In fact I always expunge the
deleted messages automatically when I go to the different folder.

This behaviour of pine is strange for me. When I used the Netscape
mailer long ago then after filtering the original source (INBOX) was
cleaned up, so it was possible to have a correct state on the mail
checker, which could only see an empty file (after Netscape cleaning).

So I now wonder why pine is so different in this matter. :|

Regards,
Murphy

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:31:35 -0800 (PST)

:) >Not sure if this would work, by try pressing "X" (for expunge) in the
:) >inbox. If that doesn't work (because there are no messages in the
:) >inbox), send a message to yourself, delete it and expunge it. Does
:) >that work?
:)
:) I try it, and there is no difference. In fact I always expunge the
:) deleted messages automatically when I go to the different folder.

That's why I was not sure, I think I know what's going on from the point
of view of source code, and it probably means that there's nothing you can
do. I think that part of the problem is that the c-client library does not
(and will not according to a message I read once from Mark Crispin)
implement expunging on a "by message number" basis (which is what should
happen, but Pine instead hides those messages). I was thinking that maybe
a global expunge would trigger the server (or Pine) to expunge those
messages, but it does not as you just checked.

I don't think there's any sensible thing to do about your problem. For
example, one could write a program that expunges deleted messages from a
folder, but then depending on your folder format, you may loose access to
your inbox, which is not a big problem, but an annoying one to have. This
is a shortcoming of Pine (not of filters in Pine).

I wonder what people that never close Pine do. It seems that this is a
sure way to go over quota (and yes I know a place where the spool is under
quota, so ignoring it or saying that memory is cheap is not the solution
of the problem).

Eduardo

---

From: daniel lance herrick <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:54:25 -0500 (EST)

> quota, so ignoring it or saying that memory is cheap is not the solution

pine 4.44 on Solaris 9:

I have pine filter mail out of the exchange server
into local mailboxes (accessible to grep and
emacs). Stuff that I don't have filters for stays
in the (exchange) IMAP server INBOX until I cycle
around the NewMail folders and look at it again.
When I do, I usually do an xy to expunge the
e-mail I deleted by hand.

When pine disconnects from the IMAP server for
some reason (they boot it from time to time), when
I restart pine to get it to reconnect, it
refilters some old mail so there are two copies in
the local mailboxes of some messages. Annoying,
but never a *terribly* large quantity.

dan

---

From: Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:19:30 +0100 (MET)

>messages, but it does not as you just checked.

In fact I'm not using a file from server as an INBOX, but just normal
file which is initially pre-filtered by procmail. So, from my
perspective filters should do (and they partially does) the things
which they suppose to do - move, for instance, the e-mails from one
folder (file) to another, means delete them also from the source
location (this is a definition of "move", not "copy"). If it would be
done like this (preferably configurable in the setup screen), then It
would be no problem.

>is a shortcoming of Pine (not of filters in Pine).

Looking for temporary workaround is not the way I would like to do,
even if it would be possible (for instance make a script which would
rename the original file to the new name and create the empty INBOX.
But I'm afraid that it can do some harm when such a script will do
its work when actually a part of a new message will try to append
itself to the end of INBOX file. So, perfectly it would be that Pine
could do this work. I wish developers will add something like this in
the near future to the Pine.

>quota, so ignoring it or saying that memory is cheap is not the solution

For my case the quota is not a problem because I have no quota at all,
and all e-mails are immediately redirected from the mail server to the
local home directory. It is just big inconvenience if I have to close
and open the Pine again just for updating my mail checker.

Thanks Eduardo for explaining me the source of the problem. I hope
that Pine developers will find some solution for that.

Regards,
Murphy

---

From: Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:02:22 +0100 (MET)

>>messages, but it does not as you just checked.

I checked what the "Mutt 1.4.2.1i" does about this INBOX when the
deleted messages are expunged. It actually does what it should - it
removes the messages from the INBOX, so there is no need to exit/open
it again just to have updated INBOX file.

Looks like in this round the score is 1:0 to Mutt. :(

Regards,
Murphy