Subject: "No more incoming folders"

From: Mike Schiraldi <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:28:04 -0500 (EST)

I use procmail to put my mail in different files for different mailing
lists. In Pine, i have enable-incoming-folders set and i've added the
appropriate items to my Incoming-Folders collection. However, if i press
Tab in INBOX, it says "No more incoming folders" despite the fact that
there are more incoming folders, and if i manually go into them, i can
clearly see that they have new messages in them.

I browsed the archives for this list and found three occassions where this
same question was asked, but unfortunately, there was no solution posted.

Is there something i may have overlooked? Thanks.

Here are the links to the aforementioned messages, in case they might have
phrased the problem more clearly:

http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/1996.04/msg00320.html
http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/1996.08/msg00000.html
http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/1997.06/msg00083.html

BTW, i'm using 4.33.

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From: Mohit Agarwal <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:38:57 +0530 (IST)

> clearly see that they have new messages in them.

Using the filtering provided by Pine (press M S R F) to sort your mails.
Procmail sorts the mails as and when those are delivered; pine does so
when you open a pine session.  In case of sorting using procmail, pine
doesn't come to know about what messages have been filtered and hence you
get to see `No more...'.

-- 
Mohit Agarwal                             <[email-masked]>
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GPG Public Key:  http://cfdlab.aero.iisc.ernet.in/~mohit/mohit.gpg

---

From: Martin Domeij <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:38:04 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time)

> doesn't come to know about what messages have been filtered and hence you

Hm... I filter with procmail, and Pine has worked fine with that since..
uh, since I incoming-folders first came around I think.

/Martin

Keep things as recursive as possible, but not recursiver.

---

From: Mohit Agarwal <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:42:14 +0530 (IST)

> uh, since I incoming-folders first came around I think.

Sorry, my mistake.. Incoming folders will work fine when filtering with
procmail.  But if have *only* those new mails that have been sorted using
procmail, then you won't get the message at login time saying `You have
new mail'.  By the way, I'm not sure whether a similar thing exists on a
windows machine.

---

From: Martin Domeij <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:31:02 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time)

At 17:42 Today Mohit Agarwal wrote:

> new mail'.

No, of course not, but that has nothing to do with pine.

/Martin

---

From: Mike Lambert <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 07:57:56 -0500

> clearly see that they have new messages in them.

I have been doing this with pine since the incoming-folder feature was
created and am running 4.33 currently. In order for the tab key to work
for incoming forlders, pine has to know about them via the .pinerc file.
Knowing about them is different from merely seeing them in the "incoming
folders" window.  For example, my .procmailrc has the following settings
(comments deleted for brevity):

# Updated by Pine(tm) 4.21, copyright 1989-1999 University of Washington.
#
# Pine configuration file -- customize as needed.

inbox-path=/var/mail/mkl

###################### Collections, Folders, and Files #####################

incoming-folders="nedod" Mail/IN.nedod,
		"bmwmc" Mail/IN.bmwmc,
		"oilheads" Mail/IN.oilheads,
		"pine" Mail/IN.pine,
		"bblisa" Mail/IN.bblisa,
		block Mail/IN.block,
		spam Mail/IN.spam,
		trash Mail/IN.trash

folder-collections=Mail/archive/[]

mail-directory=Mail/

############################### Preferences ################################

feature-list=
	enable-incoming-folders,

hth,

-- 
Mike Lambert
               /|\ /\             \  |  /           ^.^
___o&o________/   \  \^^______   ` _---_ '   ___________

---

From: Martin Domeij <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:09:17 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time)

> clearly see that they have new messages in them.

Have you opened the folder before? What I'm getting at is this:

If I'm in my inbox and press tab, it will take me to the next incoming
folder. If I from there go back to my inbox without actually reading the
messages in it, tab won't take me back to that folder until there is
another new message in it, although it clearly still has messages with the
'N'-flag intact in it. I'm not sure how this works (hopefully someone
does :)), but it seems that it doesn't check for unread messages as much
as folders that hasn't been opened since last altered or something of the
sort. Which is rather preferable I think; I mean, I probably had a reason
for not reading those messages in the incoming folder.

/Martin

---

From: Mike Schiraldi <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:44:21 -0500 (EST)

> 'N'-flag intact in it.

Bingo. I realize now that that's exactly the problem i'm having.

> for not reading those messages in the incoming folder.

I'm not so sure. I'd suggest this be a config option. At the very least it
should be mentioned in the docs.

---

From: Mike Brudenell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:35:07 -0000

Greetings -

I hope I'm not too out of date with the information below (we're lagging a 
few releases behind actuality at the moment!) ...

--On Monday, March 5, 2001 10:44 am -0500 Mike Schiraldi 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> another new message in it, although it clearly still has messages with
>> the 'N'-flag intact in it.
>

Sounds like the old confusion about "What does 'New' mean?" ...

Different people have different interpretations as to what "New" means.

To some people a "New" message is one that hasn't been read (which includes 
a message which has been read and then re-flagged as being unread).

    The most obvious means of such a "New" message appearing is a mail
    delivery agent adding a newly arriving message to a folder.

    A less obvious one is someone going back to a previously-read message
    and changing its status flag to say it has been unread.

To other people a "New" message is one that has arrived in a mail folder 
since it was last opened/polled (even if that new message had been read 
previously and simply re-saved to this folder).

    Again the most obvious cause of such a message appearing in a folder is
    a brand new one arriving through the delivery agent.

    A less obvious cause is manually copying any message (even a "read"
    one!) from one folder to another: in the target folder the message might
    well be already-read but still recently-arrived!

In some sense either interpretation is valid.  Hence it is often less 
confusing to talk about "Seen/Unseen" and "Recent(ly arrived)" messages. 
The former are tracked with IMAP's "Seen" message flag (which is under the 
control of the user), and the latter by IMAP's "Recent" flag (which isn't).

The unfortunate thing is that Pine displays Unseen messages with the "N" 
flag next to them in the index screens.  This leads people to equate Unseen 
and New.

So where does that take us?

Pine displays Unseen messages (ie, those without the IMAP "Seen" flag set) 
marked with an "N" in its index screens.  People read this as meaning "New".

When Pine talks about "incoming folders" people assume that the Tab key 
will check for "New" messages IN the folder.  Actually it is checkong for 
messages new TO the folder: ie, those that are "recently arrived", as 
denoted by having the IMAP "Recent" flag set.

You can see where the idea is coming from:

    0.  A newly arrived message appears in one of your incoming folders.
        Assume this folder is called "quz".

    1.  Pine checks your subsequent incoming folders and spots the newly
        arrived ("Recent") message has appeared in folder "quz".  It
        offers you the chance to look at the folder and you do so.

    2.  You see the message summary in the Index and decide not to bother
        with it right now.  You return to the INBOX.

    3.  For subsequent checks it is useful to learn about any further
        messages that newly arrive in "quz" without being bothered about
        the existence of the earlier message (which you know about and
        declined to read at the time).  When any such _more_ messages
        arrive a subsequent poll will detect them (only) and alert you,
        so you can again check the Index and decide whether to read/deal
        with them there and then.

>From the point of view of someone _monitoring_ mail folders (for newly 
arriving mail) this behaviour is probably exactly what they want.

However for someone wanting to _maintain_ mail folders (to go back and 
read/deal with messages they chose not to at the time of first 
notification) then it probably _isn't_ what they want ... they'd prefer it 
to track the status of the "Seen" flag rather than the "Recent" flag.

> should be mentioned in the docs.

One solution is to explain clearly in the documentation/built-in help about 
the subtle difference between Seen/Unseen and Recent messages, which is 
used for checking incoming mail folders, and why.

Another would be to provide a configuration option.  For example Mulberry 
is very flexible and enables you to define a "New" message as being one of:
    *  A message that is Unseen
    *  A message that is Recent
    *  A message that is Recent AND Unseen
(the latter avoids false "Recent-only" positives caused by copying an 
already-read message to a monitored mailbox ... such a message is Recent 
but Seen)

However I seem to recall there is, as ever, a penalty.

I _think_ I'm right in saying that the number of Recent messages can be 
obtained quickly and cheaply with IMAP's EXAMINE command, but that to check 
for Unseen messages requires the mailbox be opened and parsed (which 
usually is relatively expensive).

[Disclaimer: This applies to the pre-IMAP 2000 version of the U. Washington
             IMAP server.  If things have changed in IMAP 2000 onwards then
             do please someone correct me so I know for next time!]

Cheers,

Mike B-)

-- 
The Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York Yo10 5DD, UK
Tel:+44-1904-433811  FAX:+44-1904-433740
                                 Web: http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~pmb1/
* Unsolicited commercial e-mail is NOT welcome at this e-mail address. *

---

From: Mike Schiraldi <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:32:44 -0500 (EST)

> denoted by having the IMAP "Recent" flag set.

Inconsistency alert!

I'm in a folder which has two messages. Both are Unseen. Neither is
Recent. I'm on message one. I press Tab. It takes me to message two, the
next Unseen message.

I'm in folder foo with one message. I also have another incoming folder,
bar, with one message. Both messages are Unseen. Neither is Recent. I
press Tab. Nothing happens. It's looking for the next Recent message.

> to track the status of the "Seen" flag rather than the "Recent" flag.

That's right. I'm on a lot of mailing lists, and first thing in the
morning, i want to dart through them, looking for interesting subject
lines. Later, i'll want to glance at any messages i've skipped the first
time, and there's no easy way i can find to zip through all Unseen
messages across multiple folders.

> usually is relatively expensive).

Yeah, but i've got Pine running locally, mailboxes stored locally, and
800 MHz all to myself. :)

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:07:13 -0800 (PST)

*** Mike Brudenell ([email-masked]) wrote in the pine-info list today:

:) Sounds like the old confusion about "What does 'New' mean?" ...

  When Pine communicates with the server, it asks for the status of the
messages according to the server. The server reports for "unseen" and
"recent" messages. A message that is "recent" and "unseen" is what is
called "New" (N), a message which is "not recent" and "unseen" is called
"unread" (U). Depending on how you display your index in Pine you can have
messages that should be marked with a "U" seen as if they are marked with
a "N". This is the default behavior of Pine. If you want to change this
behavior you should define your index-format to be:

IMAPSTATUS MSGNO DATE FROMORTO(35%) SIZE SUBJECT(65%)

this will show you more fields, than "N" and " ", in particular you can
have the status be one of the four following fields:

 "N" - New, the message was not in the folder the last time it was opened
 "R" - Read, the message was not in the folder the last time it was opened
       and you read the message (or opened it at least)
 "U" - Unread, the message was in the folder the last time you opened it,
       and you did not read it (this is the "N" you normally see in Pine)
 " " - Read, the messge was there the last time you opened it and you just
       opened it.

:) One solution is to explain clearly in the documentation/built-in help about
:) the subtle difference between Seen/Unseen and Recent messages, which is
:) used for checking incoming mail folders, and why.

All this information is explained in the definition of the IMAPSTATUS
token, which can be read online from the help of the "index-format"
configuration variable.

-- 
Eduardo
http://www.math.washington.edu/~chappa/pine/

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:09:42 -0800 (PST)

*** Mike Schiraldi ([email-masked]) wrote in the pine-info list...:

:) Inconsistency alert!
:)
:) I'm in a folder which has two messages. Both are Unseen. Neither is
:) Recent. I'm on message one. I press Tab. It takes me to message two, the
:) next Unseen message.
:)
:) I'm in folder foo with one message. I also have another incoming folder,
:) bar, with one message. Both messages are Unseen. Neither is Recent. I
:) press Tab. Nothing happens. It's looking for the next Recent message.

I do not know what the inconsistency here is, this is exactly how it is
supposed to work. You probably have tab set up to work so that if there
are no more new messages to scan in the folder, then it looks for in the
next one. This is normal. Remember that new is not the same as unseen.

---

From: Mike Schiraldi <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:17:11 -0500 (EST)

> next one. This is normal. Remember that new is not the same as unseen.

In the first scenario, pressing Tab takes you to the next Unseen message.
In the second, it takes you to the next Recent message.

Or, to put it another way, pressing Tab takes you to the next Unseen
message in the current folder if one exists. If not, it takes you to the
next Recent message in the set of incoming folders.

IMHO, it should either take you to the next Unseen message or take you to
the next Recent message, but certainly not one or the other, depending on
whether said message is in the current folder or not.

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:30:26 -0800 (PST)

:) In the first scenario, pressing Tab takes you to the next Unseen message.
:) In the second, it takes you to the next Recent message.

Read the help associated to

  [X]  auto-open-next-unread

you can find there the description of the behavior you are complaining
about.

---

From: Mike Schiraldi <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:37:27 -0500 (EST)

> you can find there the description of the behavior you are complaining

I'm afraid i don't see what you're talking about. It says, in part:

  When the TAB (Next New) key is pressed, and there are no more unseen
  messages in the current (incoming message or news) folder, Pine will
  search the list of folders in the current collection for one containing
  New or Recent (new since the last time the folder was opened)  messages.

If "New or Recent" means "Unseen or Recent", the documentation is
incorrect, because that's not the way Pine behaves.

If "New or Recent" means "Recent", Pine is inconsistent.

Pressing Tab takes you to the next message that has Quality X. Quality X
means "Unseen" if the message is in your current folder, and it means
"Recent" if the message is in a different incoming folder. This is
inconsistent.

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:19:41 -0800 (PST)

:) I'm afraid i don't see what you're talking about. It says, in part:
:)
:)   When the TAB (Next New) key is pressed, and there are no more unseen
:)   messages in the current (incoming message or news) folder, Pine will
:)   search the list of folders in the current collection for one containing
:)   New or Recent (new since the last time the folder was opened)  messages.

Take a look at the documentation of:

    [X]  tab-visits-next-new-message-only

this is the help for it:

This feature affects Pine's behavior when using the TAB key to move from
one message to the next. Pine's usual behavior is to select the next
unread message or message flagged as "Important".

Setting this feature causes Pine to skip the messages flagged as
important, and select unread messages exclusively. Tab behavior when
there are no new messages left to select remains unchanged.

In another words, if you press the "Tab" key and there is an unseen
message that follows that message, then pressing TAB will take you there.

On the other hand, if you press the TAB key in the last unread message
and  [X]  auto-open-next-unread is set, then the behavior is that you will
be sent to the next folder that contains New or Recent messages (meaning
messages that were not there the last time the folder was opened, this is
what the last line of the paragraph that I quoted from your message says.

  I do not see any inconsistency in the documentation, rather I see that
you are trying to interpret Pine's behavior as a behavior that relates to
"New messages", whatever be the meaning of "New". As it is clear from
above, the behavior of TAB is for "unseen"  messages when you are in the
folder (and this is documented) and is for "recent" when you skip to
another folder, and this is also documented.

  I do not disagree with the idea that one could have a key for checking
for messages with the quality "X", but this is not what Tab does, and the
documentation shows that very clearly.

---

From: Susan Dorsey <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:15:36 -0700 (MST)

Hi,

We've been seeing some problems with 4.33 as a result of old mbox
files existing in some users' $HOME directories.  If the mbox exists,
Pine 4.33 moves the spool into mbox upon opening.

This is causing a variety of problems, but what it all comes down to is:
Is there a way to compile 4.33 to make it ignore mbox?  Or at least so it
doesn't move spool/mail into mbox?

Second question - We have some users who apparently run Pine on the server
(ie, not PC Pine) and simultaneously allow their PCs to pop mail.  Pine
3.96 seemed to have no problem with this (although I have no idea why
anyone would do this).  However, 4.33 doesn't allow the pop to occur.  Is
this a designed feature of 4.33?  If so, and this becomes a major
complaint, can this feature be compiled out?

Thanks,
Susan

Susan Dorsey
[email-masked]
Information Technology Services
University of Colorado at Boulder

---

From: Eduardo Chappa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:45:03 -0800 (PST)

*** Susan Dorsey ([email-masked]) wrote in the pine-info list today:

:) We've been seeing some problems with 4.33 as a result of old mbox
:) files existing in some users' $HOME directories.  If the mbox exists,
:) Pine 4.33 moves the spool into mbox upon opening.
:)
:) This is causing a variety of problems, but what it all comes down to is:
:) Is there a way to compile 4.33 to make it ignore mbox?  Or at least so it
:) doesn't move spool/mail into mbox?

Susan,

  You can try recompiling Pine, but edit first the file:

pine4.33/imap/src/osdep/unix/Makefile

delete the value "mbox" from the "EXTRADRIVERS=mbox" variable. That should
also do it.

  If your users also use IMAP to access their INBOX, you will need to
replace "imapd" also by the new "imapd" you get after recompiling.

  If you do not wish to recompile and if your users read mail from the
spool, then adding the value "mbox" to the variable
"disable-these-drivers" in their .pinerc file will do the trick too. (This
trick does not work if your users read their INBOX through IMAP, as it is
the server, in this case, and not Pine the one that moves the messages, so
in this case it would be convenient to recompile imapd, with the support
for mbox disabled.)

  In any case, after doing this, you may receive questions about "missing
mail", since Pine is not reading mail from their "mbox" anymore. Their
mail is safely stored in their mbox file, which you can merge to their
INBOX or copy to their /mail directory.

  I didn't understand much your second question so I'll let someone else
answer it for you.

  Have a nice day.