Subject: We need a new list

From: Timothy J Luoma <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:26:03 -0500

I've given up any hope that this list might get beyond the user-end  
questions and issues addressed in the FAQ, which seem to be the highest  
percentage posts.

I would like to keep [email-masked]' as it is, but request a  
new list be made, something like [email-masked]' for those  
who are looking for the more technical aspects of PINE.

I would also offer to admin that list if the objection raised is that no one  
has time to do it.

The -info name is just too generic I think, people aren't going to figure  
out that this is a list meant to answer different questions.

Originally I was going to send this to the PINE site, but decided I would  
like to gauge how much interest there would be in adding a list. (both users  
and @washington.edu)

TjL

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see: 
 http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:52:24 -0600 (EST)

>From: Timothy J Luoma <[email-masked]>
>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:26:03 -0500

>out that this is a list meant to answer different questions.

It's too late. pine-info is referred to in too many pine distributions at the
moment. If those building new pine distributions ignore the references to this
mailing list, I seriously doubt that changing its name will make any
difference.

As far as stopping people from asking FAQs, there's only one solution to that:
Don't answer them here.

---

From: Mike Brudenell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:01:49 +0000 ("GMT)

Hmmm... I agree that Pine-Info is referred to in lots of (older) releases
of Pine as the place users can go for assistance (it used to cover both
user- and admin-related issues until it was temporarily bidirectionally
gatewayed to comp.mail.pine).

Hence creating a new, differently named, list for admin topics seems
eminently sensible: people with user-queries seeing references to
Pine-Info will continue to ask their questions there, whilst
admin/developer types can frequent the new Pine-Admin (which would be
mentioned only in Pine's installation guide rather than on-line help?).

I trust that anyone asking admin-type question in Pine-Info would be
treated courteously and have their questions answered, rather than being
given a flaming shaft as user-type enquirers currently get in Pine-Info?!

The question would then arise: should we then consider having
comp.mail.pine bidriectionally gatewayed to comp.mail.pine again?

Cheers,

Mike B-)
-- 
The Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York Yo10 5DD, UK
Tel: +44-1904-433811  FAX: +44-1904-433740  http://www.york.ac.uk/~pmb1/

* Unsolicited commercial e-mail is NOT welcome at this e-mail address. *

---

From: Jan Kalin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:35:18 +0100

> I would like to keep [email-masked]' as it is, but
> request a  new list be made, something like
> [email-masked]' for those  who are looking for the more
> technical aspects of PINE.

The first thing that popped up in my mind was: why bother. I would support
this if the volume of postings would be too high to separate 'admin' from
'user' questions, thereby burying 'admin' questions. As it is -- a few
posts per day -- it doesn't take long to sort out the questions. I don't
think that the extra 'user' questions really devalue this list so much
that a new one would have to be created.

The creation of 'admin' list would also mean that most people who actually
know something about Pine and who are the most qualified to answer
questions would not read the 'user' list (that, I presume, is the idea
behind the 'admin' list). So, the 'user' list would have noone capable of
answering questions, even if the answer is RTFFAQ. That would lower the
level of 'support' for Pine and wouldn't do much for Pine's image.

Another thing: If a user is not very computer literate, the answer to his
question and answer may be in the FAQ but he/she may not be able to
understand it.

Out of curiosity: did anyone *not* post/get an 'admin' type
question/answer because of the 'user' type questions on the list?

I know that this view might bring on flames; resist the urge! I'm just
voicing my opinion. 

Cheers, Jan

-- 
 Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
 <A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>

---

From: Steven Ertelt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:46:38 -0500 (US Eastern Standard Time)

Okay, this will be my third and final try to get an answer to this
question. Using PC Pine 4.05, how do you get the ctrl-K delete feature to
*not* put the deleted text on the clipboard for pasting. 

Thanks,
Steven

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:50:38 -0600 (EST)

>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:01:49 +0000 ("GMT)
>From: Mike Brudenell <[email-masked]>

>mentioned only in Pine's installation guide rather than on-line help?).

Therefore, pine-admin will see only minimal traffic until there are sufficient
new installations. It's pointless.

People haven't followed instructions in the past. We've asked users not to ask
beginners questions here. They still ask them. I ask people not to Cc me when
replying to the list; I get Cced anyway.

There's nothing wrong with the name of this list. This is a place to get
information.

---

From: Darren Henderson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:54:05 -0500 (EST)

> *not* put the deleted text on the clipboard for pasting. 

I think some one did reply to you and told you what I beleive to be true.
That ctrl K has _always_ worked that way.

Can always alter the source in pico of course.

______________________________________________________________________
Darren Henderson                              [email-masked]

                   Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/

---

From: Timothy J Luoma <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:03:15 -0500

Author:	"Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
	Date:	Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:52:24 -0600 (EST)
	ID:	<[email-masked]>

> It's too late. pine-info is referred to in too many pine distributions at
> the moment. If those building new pine distributions ignore the references
> to this mailing list, I seriously doubt that changing its name will make
> any difference.

I meant that we needed to ADD a _second_ list, and leave this one as-is for  
whatever purpose people want for it.

I was not suggesting a simple name-change.

Sorry for not being clearer about that.

I think that you're right, just changing the name won't help.

TjL

---

From: Mike Brudenell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:54:13 +0000 ("GMT)

> new installations. It's pointless.

The difference is that a posting to Pine-Info urging administrators to use
the new list will (hopefully) be seen by the admin-types who frequent this
forum most of the time.

> replying to the list; I get Cced anyway.

In contrast references to Pine-Info being the place to go if you have any
(user) questions is engrained into the documentation of an established
base of older Pines (eg, certainly up to 3.95).

Because of this we keep getting new people appearing on Pine-Info and
asking user-type questions because they have been told this is the place
to go for help.

> There's nothing wrong with the name of this list. This is a place to get

A *LOT* is wrong with this list ... I used to be a frequent contribuor to
it but have scaled back my efforts considerably.  Partly this is due to
pressure of work here at present, but largely it is due to the changed
nature and "pleasantness" of this list.

Originally it was a forum where users and administrators happily
co-existed, and the latter were willing to help the former.

Then came a substantial increase in the number of sites running Pine,
coupled with the bidirectional gatewaying of Pine-Info to comp.mail.pine.
The result was a vast increase in user-type questions, which seemed to
flood the list and annoy many admin-type participants.

Then the gatewaying broke down, and it was eventually decided to leave it
down so that comp.mail.pine was for user-type questions and Pine-Info was
for admin-type ones.

Problems here are:

* There are still too many references out there indicating Pine-Info is
  the place to go for users with questions;

* There doesn't appear to be a regular posting reminding newcomers to
  use comp.mail.pine instead for user-enquiries (although I guess this
  may not be included in the subscription info -- I haven't had to
  re-join the list for years and so haven't seen this lately);

* Usenet News is not available to everyone, and so requiring users to use
  a newsgroup to access their questions makes it difficult or impossible
  for some;

* Some of the admin-types currently on Pine-Info give very short shrift
  to users asking "user-questions" resulting in messages, and sometimes
  entire threads, of less than pleasant exchanges.

It is easier to persuade a smaller proportion of administrators to change
to a new list than a large number of end users.

Just my thoughts...

Cheers,

Mike B-)

PS.  I have carefully NOT cc'd you a copy of this reply directly despite
your not requesting this explicitly in your message, and even though it
took a fraction more of my time to do so.  :-)

M B-)

---

From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email-masked]>
Date: 15 Feb 1999 18:26:42 +0100

> A *LOT* is wrong with this list ... I used to be a frequent contributor
> to it but have scaled back my efforts considerably.  

<AOL> Me too, me too!!! </AOL>

> [...] largely it is due to the changed nature and "pleasantness" of this
> list.

You should, like, get a jolly life and stuff, Mike.

>   the place to go for users with questions;

The documentation is seriously in many places. 4.x wasn't mature enough
when first released. Therefore, e.g. my university didn't upgrade.

> * There doesn't appear to be a regular posting reminding newcomers to use
>   comp.mail.pine instead for user-enquiries 

There used to be one IIRC.

>   a newsgroup to access their questions makes it difficult or impossible

Add this to your statement: using pine as a newsreader is irksome, to say
the least.

>   entire threads, of less than pleasant exchanges.

This didn't come out of nowhere, did it? I don't know what make pine users
exceptionally prone to asking 100% braindead luser questions but, hey!, it
doesn't happen on either <news:comp.mail.mutt> nor <news:gnu.emacs.gnus>
although both have a lot more traffic.

> to a new list than a large number of end users.

Scoring (vulgo known as killfiling) helps a lot, too. After a couple of
months, you get almost 0% lusers. The problem is, that there are only 6
people left.

> took a fraction more of my time to do so.  :-)

Hooks. You want hooks. Or even better: posting styles. For each Mailing
List. For each Newsgroup. For each induhvidual.

Robin 

-- 
Robin S. Socha  <http://socha.net/>