Subject: List suggestions

From: Sean Farley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 20:18:33 -0500 (EST)

How about some compromises?  Here is my list of ideas:

1) pine-info is too general in name
	pine-admin	Help on administrating PINE
	pine-bug	Bugs to squash (Is this already there?)
	pine-devel	Development of PINE
	pine-gurus	Another possibility of above.  I like this better;
			it may scare newbies away from it.
	pine-info	General help to others

	If anyone asks for help on anything but the help list (pine-info),
	I recommend not to flame.  Send them just the URL to the FAQ.
	(See point 3).

2) At the bottom of each message we should also post the URL to the
   FAQ instead of just a link to information about the list.  Some
   people might not know a FAQ is located at the mailing list URL.

3) The number answer in the FAQ should give a detailed explanation of
   the functions of each of the mailing lists with the help list
   surrounded by asterisks so no one may miss it.

4) If someone ignores a post--a polite post :)--telling them to read the
   FAQ, they may be flamed.  Ignorance is one thing, ignoring help--polite
   again--is another.

If anything sounds unreasonable, I can blame the cold medicine I am
taking.  :)

Sean
--------------
[email-masked]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see: 
 http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Bob Rasmussen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:28:43 -0800 (PST)

Those are all good suggestions.

May I point out, also: People looking for solutions will often join a list and
ask their question. To those who have been on the list for some time, it
appears that "those people" keep asking the same, inappropriate questions. And
so the flames begin. However, "this person" is not "those people", nor should
they bear the brunt of somebody's pent-up frustration with other people's
transgressions.

Metaphorically, if too many people come to your door seeking what you're not
selling, change the sign on the door!

Regards,
....Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.

personal e-mail: [email-masked]
 company e-mail: [email-masked] or [email-masked] or [email-masked]
 ftp://ftp.anzio.com               voice: 503-624-0360
http://www.anzio.com                 fax: 503-624-0760

---

From: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:31:57 -0700 (MST)

> How about some compromises?  Here is my list of ideas:

HEY!!!!!!

That's constructive, helpful, and thought-out. I don't think that's
allowed in here. Stop that immediately! 

:)

-Ian

---

From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:50:53 -0500 (EST)

> 1) pine-info is too general in name

I completely agree. pine-info used to be linked to comp.mail.pine
and they were both for the same type of discussion: general tips,
tricks, and help about Pine. If pine-info is now supposed to be
for more technical questions, then it should have a name that
reflects that. My vote is to call it pine-tech and to
bidirectionally link it to a newsgroup called comp.mail.pine.tech
so that people have a choice of participating via a mailing list
or newsgroup and so the discussion is archived at places like
DejaNews. For consistency, I'd also like to see comp.mail.pine
bidirectionally linked (again) to a mailing list, maybe called
pine-users. Here are some reasons I'd like to see both these
groups available via both news and mail:

NEWSGROUP IS NICE BECAUSE...
* Discussion is archived on DejaNews and other sites that archive
  Usenet
* Can use news readers to participate and news readers are
  usually much better at discussion-group features like
  threading and killing
* Don't have to subscribe to be able to participate

MAILING LIST IS NICE BECAUSE...
* You don't have to worry about messages expiring
* UW Pine lists are archived and available via IMAP, e.g.,
  news-collections={ftp.cac.washington.edu/anonymous}#ftp/pine/pine-info/[]
  (they could probably do this with newsgroups too, which would
  be nice)

Someday I hope that newsgroups and mailing lists will both have
all the same positive features and none of the negative features
but until that day comes, I like giving people the option of
participating via either news or mail.

> 	pine-info	General help to others

For now I think just two groups are enough (general and tech)
and I think the name "pine-info" should be retired. It's got a
confusing history (i.e., originally for general discussion and
currently for tech discussion) and it's not a very descriptive
name anyway.

>    people might not know a FAQ is located at the mailing list URL.

Yes, the blurb at the bottom of each msg should mention the FAQ
(and possibly the purpose of the discussion group), but I think
that that can be done with only one URL. Here's a possibility:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 This list is for the discussion of Pine technical issues. User-
 level discussion takes place in comp.mail.pine. For information
 about this mailing list, its archives, the Pine FAQ, and general
 Pine information, see http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
 
Nancy McGough           http://www.ii.com/           Infinite Ink
--= Posted via PINE: Power Internet News & Email for Win/Unix =--

---

From: Sean Farley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:31:45 -0500 (EST)

> allowed in here. Stop that immediately! 

I claim it was drug induced.  I took normal instead of non-drowsy cold
medicine.  :)

Sean
--------------
[email-masked]

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:23:05 -0600 (EST)

>From: Bob Rasmussen <[email-masked]>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:28:43 -0800 (PST)

>they bear the brunt of somebody's pent-up frustration with other people's

I suggest that if Bob feels he is in a position to volunteer that "those
people" shouldn't be flamed because they are unwilling to read the
documentation, then his e-mail box should be the official receptacle for
correspondence from "those people" to take the burden off of this list.

I further suggest that if Bob is not personally offering to take the burden off
of others, then he should not offer suggestions on what others should do.

---

From: Miles Fidelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:32:48 -0500 (EST)

> From: Adam H. Kerman <[email-masked]>
> 

just a thought: can ListProc be configured to insert a couple of lines of
text to every list message (I know majordomo can) - say:

-------
this list is for ....
before posting, please read the FAQ at http://.....
-------

that might head off a bunch of inappropriate posts

**************************************************************************
The Center for Civic Networking 	    PO Box 600618
Miles R. Fidelman, President &		    Newtonville, MA 02460-0006
Director of Civic Networking Systems	    617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946
[email-masked]	 		    http://civic.net/ccn.html

Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century 
Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere 
Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!" 
**************************************************************************

---

From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:24:43 -0500 (EST)

I applaud Bob for his efforts, as I agree with his email, and the fact
he has taken the first step. I've also decided this flame-thread is
getting rather boring, and have decided to keep any further
replies/flaming off-list, as it can go on forever, and this is not the
appropriate channel.

> of others, then he should not offer suggestions on what others should do.

..Yashy 
"...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and<BR>
the Ugly)."
(By Matt Welsh)

---

From: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:03:43 -0700 (MST)

> I claim it was drug induced.  I took normal instead of non-drowsy cold

What fun is that?

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:19:13 -0600 (EST)

>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:24:43 -0500 (EST)
>From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>

>replies/flaming off-list, as it can go on forever, and this is not the

What is the appropriate channel to get you to end your own lack of etiquette
and discontinue your annoying practice of sending duplicate replies? Do correct
your own behavior first before looking for fault in others.

No one on the list cared whether or not you are bored with this thread. Feel
free to make no further responses.

---

From: Timothy J Luoma <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:41:14 -0500

Author:	Miles Fidelman <[email-masked]>
	Date:	Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:32:48 -0500 (EST)
	ID:	<[email-masked]>

> text to every list message (I know majordomo can) - say:

Unfortunately people won't even read the documentation about how to  
unsubscribe which is already at the foot of each message

They certainly won't bother to read the FAQ.

The only true answer is a moderated list.

I'll offer to moderate it, and promise not to use a single coarse word (and  
certainly nothing like what Stephanie used) in any of my responses.

TjL