Subject: Farewell

From: Elad Eyal <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:56:14 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)

Good morning,

	It comes a time when a man realizes the errs of his ways. For me
this moment has just arrived. 

	I've been reading the pine-info (and trying to do my modest
contribution) for a while now, and more than learning about pine I've
learnt about pine-indo writers: fubar.

	For an excessively long time, I've been getting junk mail from the
list in amounts and quality resembling Microsoft help files. Never-ending
mail wars about - BEHOLD - signature length. Gosh. Flaming every poor
bastard who had the nerve to send the wrong message to the wrong
personnel.

	People. do get a life. And if that's too much for you, then at
least take some abridged course in common courtesy. Please. 

	I know what you're gonna say, in that polite, neat way of yours.
You don't have to read it if you don't want to. Well, I'm not gonna to.
I'm unsubscribing from the Pine Disgustionn Forum, finally. It's too bad a
very rotten apples makes the dish bad.

	Enjoy yourselfs, lads. On my part, if ever I need someone abused,
I'll ask him to mail [email-masked].

 _
(_  /  _    /           ( E-mail pigeons nest in binary trees )
(__/__(/\_(/         http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~elad

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see: 
 http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
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---

From: Timothy J Luoma <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:48:00 -0500

Author:	Elad Eyal <[email-masked]>
	Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:56:14 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)
	ID:	<Pine.WNT.4.04.9812051623120.-797903@a>

> learnt about pine-indo writers: fubar.

Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?

Does that have anything to do with the purpose of this list?  I don't see a  
single post from you in the previous two months.... that's pretty modest.

May I draw your attention to the stated purpose of this list?

	The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs
	& workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more
	pertaining to the Pine software.  While unmoderated, it is
	intended primarily for discussion of matters of interest
	to systems/email administrators, developers, trainers, user
	support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging
	on a "technical" level.

_Technical_ doesn't mean quotas, or random tag lines or any of the other  
stuff that has been popular around here lately.

If there were some actual technical questions going around, there might be  
some more use to this list.

TjL

---

From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:29:41 -0500 (EST)

SORRY SOME  OF US ARE NOT "SMART"  AS YOU ARE SMART ASS! GET A GRIP AND
REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT THE SHIT! WE ARE ONLY ASKING FOR HELP. JUST TELL
US YOU CANT HELP! DONT BELITTLE US! ASSHOLES! AND YES, I AM CALLING NAMES
B/C YOU INSECURE BASTARDS DONT KNOW HOW TO STEP UP AND RECOGNIZE THAT SOME
PEOPLE FOLLOW DIRECTIONS THEY ARE GIVEN! I AM GLAD THAT YOU ARE SOOOOOO
SMART ON THE COMPUTER: GLAD THATS ALL YOU'LL BE FUCKIN TONIGHT!
STEPHANIE

"SMALL1DER" :)

---

From: Ken Woods <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:59:34 -0500 (EST)

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:

> where *should* the new users go to have their 'non-technical' questions
> answered? 

One of several places:

http://www.washington.edu/pine/index.html
http://www.kens.com/robin/pine.html
http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/pine/
http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/
comp.mail.pine

-- 
Ken Woods
[email-masked]

---

From: Shoeless in San Jose <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:49:02 -0800 (PST)

> Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?

Maybe because they're so thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation
that they're making a (probably feeble, knowing several of you) attempt
to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.

>  Does that have anything to do with the purpose of this list?  I don't
> see a single post from you in the previous two months.... that's
> pretty modest.

Some of us don't post regularly...rather, we help people outside the
newsgroup as it's too much of a temptation for several in here to 
make fun of everything that passes through here, which doesn't help
to answer the questions.  That doesn't mean we aren't out here
trying to accomplish things.

> 	support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging

Weird.  I can't seem to find harass, ridicule, or belittle listed.
Did I miss something, or did you leave those out for a reason?

> stuff that has been popular around here lately.

Good point...so why do most of the posts not answer the questions, but
insist on complaining about sigs that are too long or something else
equally trivial and unrelated to Pine?  Those things aren't 'technical
issues' related to Pine, either.

> If there were some actual technical questions going around, there
> might be some more use to this list.

Hmmm...by technical, I take it you mean very specific technical
questions that most newbies don't even know to ask?  That makes a
lot of sense.  So, if this newsgroup isn't considered to be tailored
to the new users of Pine, why is it listed in the FAQ and on the
Pine Web site?  Guess maybe you'd better take those links off, Mr.
Gray or whomever happens to read this and is in charge of updating
that site.  Then, if that *is* the case, where *should* the new users
go to have their 'non-technical' questions answered?

Greg

---

From: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:29:36 -0700 (MST)

> to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.

Precisely. They're mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore (cookie to
whoever can name the movie :)

> go to have their 'non-technical' questions answered?

Is there a pine-help list? 

maybe there should be a pine-help list for general usability issues, and
and this list for administrators.

---

From: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:49:17 -0700 (MST)

Shall we pick apart this one as well? I hear a round of applause! 

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT THE SHIT! WE ARE ONLY ASKING FOR HELP. 

Well, since this really isn't the place to ask for newbie help, according
to the FAQ, you get what you ask for.

-1 for being stupid.
-1 for profanity.
-1 for abusing quotation marks.

> JUST TELL US YOU CANT HELP! DONT BELITTLE US! ASSHOLES! AND YES, I AM
> CALLING NAMES B/C YOU INSECURE BASTARDS DONT KNOW HOW TO STEP UP AND

No, you're calling names because you can't form a coherent sentence. 

-1 for name-calling. 
-1 for profanity.

> RECOGNIZE THAT SOME PEOPLE FOLLOW DIRECTIONS THEY ARE GIVEN! I AM GLAD

-1 for being a lemming.

> THAT YOU ARE SOOOOOO SMART ON THE COMPUTER: GLAD THATS ALL YOU'LL BE
> FUCKIN TONIGHT!

once again, -3 for the lame personal attack.

Global:

-2 for all caps
-2 for not having the sense to trim the previous message when replying.

-Ian

---

From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 06:16:08 -0500 (EST)

> to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.

   I think Ken, as well as the others, should more importantly evaluate
their behavior, as to reflect the end-users opinions of Pine itself.
Joining the pine-info mailing list, and asking a question they can't seem
to find the answer to, and getting called names, and told to rm -rf *,
does not onlt reflect the posters "professional attitude" as they seem to
think members of this list must have. I think perhaps the hosters of this
list should take a serious look at the impact these few
need-to-insult-to-pump-my-low-selfesteem-drunks that ruin a good
mailing-list, and (the best?) Mail client's reputation. 

> Did I miss something, or did you leave those out for a reason?

  No, probably he finds himself as moderator of this list, you can see
these god-complez types all over, you just have to filter them all to
/dev/null . 

> issues' related to Pine, either.
  
  This makes me laugh, of course HE decides what is technical enough for
this list (see god-complex comment above).
  Of course from someone who is a beer-loving, plaid wearing, and a
self-proclaimed asshole, this is hardly surprising. Heck, "woods" is in
his name.

-=/Yashy/=-

 In a World without Walls and Fences ...
 Who needs Windows and Gates ?! 

 NEW IRC Server          /server irc.yashy.ottawa.on.ca

---

From: Ken Woods <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:26:39 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:

> > Somebody wrote:

Myself, along with "the others" that you have referred to, have
decided that the pine-info list is going to be left alone. Y'all are
right, pine-info is NOT the place that we should continue our "antics"
Instead, we are going to concentrate on comp.mail.pine.

So, expect pine-info to drop back to what it was about two weeks ago.
Low traffic, wrong answers, and sheer stupidity.

Please do not send replies to this message.  They'll be pointless.
man procmail to figure out why.

-- 
Ken Woods
[email-masked]

---

From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:50:09 -0500 (EST)

> Instead, we are going to concentrate on comp.mail.pine.
I'll warn everyone I can.

> Low traffic, wrong answers, and sheer stupidity.
Low/High traffic is an issue to those that need help?
Perhaps we can give better answers than rm -rf *
>From people like yourself.

> man procmail to figure out why.
Provided you were probably drunk, like usual, when you wrote this,
I'll take my chances. 

sidenote: Thanks to anyone that helped deter these hoodlums from the list,
as they good have been a great asset, and it is a shame they had to act
that way. Perhaps we can turn this list into something useful.

Cheers.

-=/Yashy/=-

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:37:59 -0600 (EST)

Clueful: Why do you set Reply-To? If your mail system automatically appends the
incorrect host name, set it yourself with "user-domain", the second option.
Only set Reply-To when you want to receive mail at another system.

>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>Message-ID:
    <[email-masked]>
>From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:50:09 -0500 (EST)

>>Myself, along with "the others" that you have referred to, have decided that
>>the pine-info list is going to be left alone. Y'all are right, pine-info is
>>NOT the place that we should continue our "antics" Instead, we are going to
>>concentrate on comp.mail.pine.

>From people like yourself.

The question is, "How can this list be of any use at all to postmasters and
system administrators if it is filled with questions that can be answered by
looking in the documentation?" Your answer is wrong.

>Provided you were probably drunk, like usual, when you wrote this,

The only time Ken was drunk while posting was when he answered luser questions
without the necessary insult.

>that way. Perhaps we can turn this list into something useful.

"as they good have been a great asset"

What do you mean?

You want to turn the list into something useful? Then post a question related
to running mail servers that use pine. Or answer one.

---

From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:20:09 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Clueful: 

 Okay listen, This list is not name calling. The Only names you have
for me are Yashy and/or Yasholomew Yashinski, and that is how I'd like to
be addressed. For the ignroant folk like yourself, I'll let you call me
mister. Anything else > /dev/null.

Why do you set Reply-To? If your mail system automatically appends the
> Only set Reply-To when you want to receive mail at another system.
Thanks for noticing, hoever until a few days ago, they were two different
boxes, and they will be again, thus the reason I've just added the
Reply-To: header.

> looking in the documentation?" Your answer is wrong.
  It can be useful to all. As they chose it to be unmoderated, it could
perhaps use a statement on their part on how technical this list should
be. I think that "clueless newbies" should have someone where to ask the
questions they can't find in the FAQ etc. Especially w/o being called
names by people like yourself, or being told to erase their valuable
files.

> without the necessary insult.

I'm sure calling list members lusers is a sure fire way of gaining
friends, as well as encouraging newbies to use Pine.

> "as they good have been a great asset"
If you are not capable of figuring out the error in that sentence, you
weren't meant to know. 

> to running mail servers that use pine. Or answer one.
  I will try to answer any I can, and without calling names etc. I would
like people to remember the pine-info list as friendly, where they can go
when they get stuck, not a list full of hostile-hicks that wish they were
real sys-admins.

..Yashy 
"...and scantily clad females, of course.  Who cares if it's below zero outside."
(By Linus Torvalds)

---

From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:42:00 +1030 (CST)

> perhaps use a statement on their part on how technical this list should

The express statement is that it is for administrator-level issues. 
Why not believe it?  And the reason was surely to minimise traffic
and not bother the maintainers with user problems that local
administrators can handle.  To filter out what they don't want to
waste their time reading.

> questions they can't find in the FAQ etc. Especially w/o being called

A clueless newbie is a person who has not read the FAQ.  If you have
studied the documentation you are not a clueless newbie.  It is vain
to try to help them, other than by pointing to the documentation.
Or undertaking to help all newbies by writing better documentation.
You might do this by creating an index to existing documentation.
 
If you are enthusiastic to help a particular clueless newbie you
will write a full and careful explanation in response to the
newbie's obscure plea for help.  But that is documentation, and it
is exactly why the original documentation was written, and what you
have just written is probably better and more accurately expressed
in the pre-existing documentation.  Remember, the original problem
was that the clueless newbie didn't and wouldn't read the
documentation.  Have you spent your time fruitfully, or have you
been made a fool of? 

What is needed is a footer added by the list server telling where to
look for further information.  I saw one today on a few of these
mails, and it was a very desirable improvement.  Presumably mail is
reaching me out of order, because it seems to have disappeared
again.

What is _not_ needed is the abuse that has been seen in this list.
If it is mail from a clueless newbie, simply pass on to the next
message.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email-masked]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:55:04 -0600 (EST)

>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:20:09 -0500 (EST)

>Okay listen, This list is not name calling.

Clueful, do NOT reply to both the list and the author, unless you are
deliberately trying to be provocative.

>names by people like yourself, or being told to erase their valuable files.

The purpose of this list is NOT to answer questions, the answer to which is in
the documentation. Clueless people can't find answers because they haven't
tried.

>friends, as well as encouraging newbies to use Pine.

I'm not selling pine. I'd rather they didn't use it if they refuse to read the
documentation.

>when they get stuck, not a list full of hostile-hicks that wish they were

In other words, you don't intend to use the list according to its stated
purpose.

---

From: Daniel Sands <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:21:22 -0700

> Pine Web site?  Guess maybe you'd better take those links off, Mr.

Because there are some administrators and bug announcers who do read the FAQ?
Also, the intended purpose of this mailing list (not newsgroup) is stated both
in the instructions for joining and in a message that is sent to those who
join.

> go to have their 'non-technical' questions answered?

How about comp.mail.pine?

---

From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 (EST)

> deliberately trying to be provocative.

Dearest Adam, as stated before, I will not reply to Clueful, so you 
can find somewhere to shove your questions/blabbing.

> In other words, you don't intend to use the list according to its stated

I *HAVE* to reply here, to a a paragraph I found:

* You may also be able to find the answer to your problem, if it has
       been discussed before, in the message archives of the Pine-Info
       mailing list. Note, however, that many perceived "Pine-problems"
       may actually have nothing to do with Pine itself, but be
       indicative of another problem on the system running Pine, so only
       your local computer support people will be able to ascertain and
       correct the cause.

I also found:

* The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs &
   workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more pertaining to
   the Pine software.

It also says it primarily for admins, but stating the above sentence,
and the fact it is unmoderated, be prepared to answer non-admin questions.
Until the new users have a place to ask there questions, this seems like
the only mailing-list they have to turn too. Also note, as said numerous
times for yourself and the other "slower" list members, there is no
place where it says "for name-calling (This includes "Clueful" btw, which
you obviously aren't, as well as luser.) and for directions to delete your
hardwork." 

So Adam, until you learn how to properly address me, and your elders, keep
reading.

..Yashy 
"...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and
the Ugly)."
(By Matt Welsh)

---

From: Vanessa Surmonde <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:34:41 -0800 (PST)

Okay, I don't often speak up, and when I do, it's usually to answer
technical questions (or very occasionally ask them). I think all of the
'old guard' here (Robin, Adam, Shoeless, Colin and the others) have clues,
and I think that it would mostly be agreed that I'm not a clueless luser
either. I've been on this list a year now, and I've seen times when the
list was definetly a community and the information was definetly useful,
and I've seen Robin flame people who really deserved it in some very
creative ways (And I have them saved somewhere, if anyone wants a repost
;) ), and then I've seen this. This is useless. We have had more flames
lately, and more boring, unoriginal flames, then I think I've seen in some
time here. I think the signal-to-noise ratio has gotten to the point where
it simply bites. If I want to listen to boring, snotty people whining
about pointless shit, I'll go watch talk shows. I assume everyone here has
an IQ above room temperature, and a maturity somewhat above middle school,
and I think we should act it.

As a suggestion, I think that when someone asks a really clueless
question, even a faq (perhaps esspecially a faq) a response with the
pointer to the answer and a gentle admonition to RTFM or RTFF would be the
most appropriate and most useful way of dealing with them. For example

> I can't use pine if I don't turn on my computer first. What's wrong?

Well, you'll find that it is impossible to design pine so that it can run
outside of the computer. More information on this may be found at
http://www.somedumbsite.com/really-stupid-faq. Please remember to read the
faq next time as it saves us time and energy in repeating our answer and
saves you time and energy waiting for us to repeat our answers.

Useful replies will be read and perhaps replied to. Boring flames and
replies that say "You must be a luser because you don't want us to flame
the lusers" will be forwarded to /dev/null.

If you want flame wars, read alt.flame or go to onelist and make your own
flame war list. This is about pine, and I don't have a problem with the
occasional weird discussion (making toast, anyone?) or the occasional well
written (intelligent and humourous are always good), deserved flame (or
even undeserved, if it's well written enough ;) ), but the boring,
pointless flame wars of recent have gotten very old. And no, I'm not going
to leave, because I happen to like what this list was, and I don't intend
to let it die simply because of a few, stupid flame wars.

Vinnie
--
a safe place for all of the pieces that scatter
learn to pretend there's more than love that matters - e saliers
Obligatory pathetic website at http://www.ashawna.net

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:14:36 -0600 (EST)

Clueful still insists on sending duplicate replies to the list and to my
mailbox separately. It is now clear that he is being deliberately provocative.

>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 (EST)

>       your local computer support people will be able to ascertain and

That is an instruction to new users to check the archives before asking their
question on the list, an excellent admonition.

>the only mailing-list they have to turn too.

This is a unique interpretation.

>So Adam, until you learn how to properly address me, and your elders, keep

Just how old are you? You blame sending duplicate messages to me on senility?

---

From: Timothy J Luoma <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:53:15 -0500

Author:	Yasholomew Yashinski <[email-masked]>
	Date:	Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 (EST)
	ID:	 
<[email-masked]>

> can find somewhere to shove your questions/blabbing.

Um.... you have replied to it, since you replied to the message AND mentioned it.

> It also says it primarily for admins, but stating the above
> sentence, and the fact it is unmoderated, be prepared to answer
> non-admin questions.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.  
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.  
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Just because a list is unmoderated DOES NOT mean that we have to reply to  
off-topic posts.

> Until the new users have a place to ask there questions, this
> seems like the only mailing-list they have to turn too.

They HAVE a place: comp.mail.pine.

How difficult is that?????

It is on the START PAGE for PINE at http://www.washington.edu/pine/#Contact

It is actually HARDER for them to find out about the mailing list, which  
then explicitly states:

'administrators, developers, trainers, user support personnel, and others  
involved with Pine messaging on a "technical" level.'

It is clear enough, if people bother to read.

They don't.

Do we give up and let the list be a duplication of the FAQ and the newsgroup?

I say no, a thousand times no.

Just being able to subscribe to a list does not allow you to dictate what is  
acceptable for that list.  There are rules, and you need to follow them.

It's not complex.

TjL

---

From: "Colin J. Raven" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:43:30 -0800

For what it's worth, here's my $.02 on this issue:
1. I used to get irate at flamers, as well as lusers.
That was before I really got into procmail and accumulated
 an healthy appreciation for it...ummm, maybe that's not exactly the point.
2. More likely the point is this, a delete key works just like procmail.
	Flamers vs lusers:
1. Sometimes, we inadvertently incite the flamers by protesting to/about
their rants,                   insults and generally supercilious nonsense.
2. To flame a newbie (or other non-faq reader) is counter-productive,
*except* in the most extreme circumstances.
	Moderation vs Open List:
1. I used to be an advocate of a moderated list, not so any more I must
admit. We have to be able to exchange opinions without a human filter.
2.If anyone here belongs to the HTML Writers Guild, you will know that
there's an example of a moderated list gone nuts. One sentence that doesn't
relate *exclusively* to the topic is crunched by a "censor" (sorry
"moderator"), with elaborate repetitive posts pounding home the point. After
a while, the moderator is the offender! It's also a humorless environment
BTW.
Conclusion: Open beats moderated hands down
	Other Issues:
In my opinion, the FAQ's themselves could be better written. They are
written as though the reader knows the subject well, and is referring to
them as a memory refresher only (like man pages).
Having said that, I'm gonna get flamed for it I know...ah well c'est la
guerre. The most likely response may well be; "if you believe they are so
badly written, do the whole Pine community a favor and  re-write 'em" Well,
I'm not going to do that. It's an observation only...period.
If the newbies can't be practioners of common sense, and the flamers have to
be excessively demonstrative of their enhanced knowledge level, and the
readers cannot tolerate the expanded discussion..there's:
	a) procmail
	b) the delete key
	c) Unsubscription
Moderation is a word with innumerable possible definitions. It's a quality,
a necessity when exchanging opinions in a civilized society. No one asks
that another hold a "moderate opinion". The opinions we all hold on various
subjects are sacrosanct unto the holder. We ask that others express that
opinion or position with conviction and passion. The manner of delivery must
be moderated when the sensibilities of others are concerned. As has been
said; " I disagree with your position, but I shall defend to the death your
right to express it"
The absent factor in that equation is civility. Civil discourse is a
foundation of the political process. It doesn't dilute the subject, it
merely allows the principals to exchange strongly held views with clarity,
and absent the passions that accompany the riposte to a percieved insult or
slight.
As said above, that's my $0.02 worth, delivered civilly and with profound
respect for the real contributors to this list, (all of whom know more than
I do BTW)
To my frend Robin (before his defection to kens.com, but still my friend
nonetheless)
				Ed, TjL, Shoeless, Adam, Vinnie, Norbert, Ian
Regards,
-Colin.
--
Colin J. Raven
VP Operations, HDS Lab, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA  |  Harrsion, NY
http://linus.uhmc.sunysb.edu/~colin/