Subject: vote for pine

From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:36:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

The Mining Co. is collecting votes for the best email client at

 http://email.miningco.com/library/cc/blvote.htm

and Pine only has 0.3% of the votes so far. If you want to help spread
the word about the great and powerful Pine 4.03, how about casting
your vote? You can see the Pine comments that people have submitted
with their votes at:

 http://email.miningco.com/library/cc/bluserpine.htm

Nancy

-- 
Nancy McGough
Infinite Ink
http://www.ii.com

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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:23:54 +0930 (CST)

> Nancy

Dear this-address-is-valid,

I don't know if you have actually used Pine, but Pine is not
Netscape Communicator, and Pine is not Pegasus Mail for Microsoft Windows
98.  I can't tab to the above URLs in Pine and connect to those sites. 

What you need to do is set up a return e-mail address which performs the
vote, using a custom delivery agent or majordomo.

Any "vote" called for by e-mail which must be cast in a Web browser is
ipso facto discredited.

Anyway, what are you trying to achieve?  Why should I care what the Mining
Co., whatever that is, is doing?

As I assume you are collecting e-mail addresses for a spam, you will
need to read the list to see this.

--Mike

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From: "Ed Greshko" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:51:21 +0800

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Michael
> Talbot-Wilson
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 8:54 AM
> To: Pine Discussion Forum
> Subject: Re: vote for pine

> 98.  I can't tab to the above URLs in Pine and connect to those sites.

You can't?  Maybe it is because you are using pine3.96?  In pine 4.03 it
works fine for me on both a Solaris platform as well as the just released
Win32 version.

> need to read the list to see this.

Actually, if you go to the Main Menu of pine and then go to the Release
Notes and pop down to the "Credits" section you will notice Nancy's name.

So, she is trying to achieve recognition for pine.

But, I do agree with you.  What do I care about Mining Co.?  What good is
some survey where only a limited number of people...and certainly not a
cross section...will particpate?  And, what good is a survey where you can
tell everyone on a list to go vote for pine?  And, how valid are any of
these things on a site which tell you about "Proto" from CommTouch when
CommTouch has ceased all development on this SW and has moved to being a Web
hosting company.

Nancy's motives are not related to spamming.....but I do question why anyone
would want to announce such a unscientific and meaningless survey.

Regards,
Ed

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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:13:13 +0930 (CST)

> works fine for me on both a Solaris platform as well as the just released

Oops.  Dumb of me.  It seems only a couple of weeks since I downloaded and
installed the latest version, so I thought I was right up to date.  (It
was 4.02A.)  Now I realise that I'm using it on a new machine with a new
Linux installation (Slackware 3.5), and yes, you are right, I have
reverted to 3.96.

> >...

Okay.  Nancy, thanks and apologies.  Incidentally, I don't seem to have a
Release Notes option in the Main Menu in the versions I have.

Regards,
Mike

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From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:54:59 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Michael Talbot-Wilson wrote:
> 98.  

Yes, I have actually used Pine. I've taught classes about it, I've
written about it in the book Internet Secrets, I've got a web page
about it, I've contributed to the Pine FAQ, I've been a tester for
Pine 4 and submitted many bug reports and feature requests. I've also
used Communicator and Pegasus and the evil Microsoft Outlook and tried
using many of the IMAP clients out there. In the Unix world, I used
good ol' Unix mail for years then finally converted to elm in 1989 and
happily used elm until 1992 when the main reason I switched to Pine
was because I was teaching Internet classes and it was much easier to
teach people how to use Pine with its built-in pico editor. Since 1992
I have become a huge fan of Pine because:

 1) It follows Internet standards
 2) It uses IMAP (and actually its developers are key to the 
    development of IMAP)
 3) It's open source software
 4) It's free
 5) It's cross platform so when I switch between Unix and Win/NT I
    don't get confused about my mail & news commands
 6) You can do everything from the keyboard
 7) It supports piping of messages (at least the Unix version does
    now; once the Win/NT version does it will blow all other Win/NT
    mail/news clients away as far as I'm concerned)
 8) It understands compartmentalization. Rather than trying to do
    everything, it provides hooks for helper programs like PGP.
    Filtering can be done on the server via something like procmail
    (another reason that IMAP is a great message access protocol).
 9) It's usable by people with disabilities
10) It's powerful and customizable
11) It's not Microsoft

> Any "vote" called for by e-mail which must be cast in a Web browser is

It's true that web votes are not very accurate but then neither are
votes submitted by email. To me it's just interesting to see what
programs have a lot of user support (or at least a core of users who
have the energy to submit a lot of votes!). You can see how these
votes are going by looking at:

 http://email.tqn.com/library/cc/blbestclient.htm

I'm sure it's NOT the case that 53.34% of email users are using The
Bat but it sure is interesting (to me) that there's a group of really
enthusiastic users of The Bat. It's also interesting to me to see how
much everyone hates Microsoft. Hardly anyone admits to using Microsoft
products -- even Pine has got Outlook beat! Another poll like this is
the browser poll at:

 http://cgi.zdnet.com/zdpoll/question.html?pollid=5207&action=a

I'm also sure that it's NOT the case that only 28% of users are using
the evil MSIE and there's no way that 19% are using Opera. But again
it's interesting to me to see how strong the anything-but-Microsoft
sentiment is.

> Co., whatever that is, is doing?

I guess what I'd like is to get the word out about Pine, especially
PC-Pine. Most people have no idea that there is this great free
standards-based powerful robust mail and news client called PC-Pine
that they can use in their Win/NT environment. I've introduced some of
my non-Unix friends to it and they just love how clean it is. Once you
know how to use Pine (on any platform) I claim you can process mail
much more efficiently than you'll ever be able to in the
point-and-click drag-and-drop GUI world of monolithic programs. And of
course I like promoting something that is completely different (and a
lot better) than anything the evil Microsoft will ever produce.

> need to read the list to see this.

If you look at my web pages or read my posts, you'll see that
collecting email addresses for spam is not quite my style.

-- 
Nancy McGough
Infinite Ink
http://www.ii.com

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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:53:21 +0930 (CST)

> I have become a huge fan of Pine because:

Nancy, I have already apologised to you in this list for the folly of my
remark concerning your use of Pine.  I didn't know what you were. 

Regards,
Mike

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From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:18:02 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

> remark concerning your use of Pine.  I didn't know what you were. 
                                                     ^^^^

Apology accepted. I guess I kind of overreacted to your message. I'm
just tired of all the sniping that goes on in discussion groups,
especially in Usenet. I hope you aren't really thinking of me as a
"what" rather than a "who"!

-- 
Nancy McGough
Infinite Ink
http://www.ii.com

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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:31:44 +0930 (CST)

> "what" rather than a "who"!

Heh.  As a matter of fact, I chose the word carefully.  "Who" refers to
identity, "what" to status.  I knew you were Our Nancy but I didn't know
you were the noble Lady Nancy of Pine. :-)

Regards,
Mike

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From: Jauder Ho <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:20:58 -0700 (PDT)

WHAT are you? ;) sorry couldn't resist.

--Jauder

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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:38:27 +0930 (CST)

> WHAT are you? ;) sorry couldn't resist.

You put me in mind of an incompletely remembered exchange between John
Knox and Mary Queen of Scots that I read in some history book.  Knox was
laying down the law on some point, presumably regarding the reorganization
of the Scottish church, when Mary interrupted contemptuously with

"What are _ye_ in this commonwealth?"

to which Knox replied,

"A citizen of the same, madam".

I hope therefore that I may be accounted a humble citizen of the
Republic of Pine.

:-)

Regards,
Mike

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From: Jauder Ho <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:54:47 -0700 (PDT)

well they have Banana Republic, so why not Pine Republic =)

--Jauder