Subject: Ignored newsgroups header.

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:08:07 -0600

I've been corresponding on USENET with someone who uses a mail2news
gateway. For some reason, when I reply, Pine ignores the newsgroups header
in his e-mail, leaving me to put it in.

Pine 3.95 also doesn't put a Followup-To: header in. I realize that these
should be redundant or useless to software. They are informativ to users
though. Does Pine 3.96 use them?

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:12:51 -0500 (CDT)

>From: [email-masked]
>Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:08:07 -0600

>in his e-mail, leaving me to put it in.

You aren't giving sufficient information. You aren't using the gateway? What
protocol do you use for Usenet reading?

Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not. Pine
will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the bang path
route that the article took to reach your news server, you will not be allowed
to post a followup article to News.

This is actually one of pine's few well-behaved features related to News. Too
many news readers allow mail replies and include headers only applicable to
News, and too many mail readers will allow replies to be posted to News instead,
even if that wasn't the intent.

>though. Does Pine 3.96 use them?

Put it in yourself with Customized-hdrs option in the configuration. Read the
context-sensitive help at that option.

Again, you can add that to a reply sent to you in Mail, but that won't be
sufficient for pine to allow you to post that in News. Followup-To is strictly a
News header.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:14:11 -0600

> protocol do you use for Usenet reading?

In this case, since he's giving me a carbon copy via e-mail, I'm using
SMTP. I can and usually do yuuz NNTP.

> to post a followup article to News.

Sure I will. I can put the newsgroups header in if Pine doesn't.

> even if that wasn't the intent.

In this case, we assume an approval from a moderator, and converse more
rapidly than the approval process completes.

Pine is well-behaved when an NNTP posting host is available. As far as
being well-behaved when deciding whether to post, mail, or both, I'd
prefer to have that choice at submission time.

If I'M using a mail2news gateway because the number of groups is greater 
than five and I expect the post to fail, it doesn't really matter--I'll
send it to MIT's gateway. The post will fail locally. It's just a bit
messy, unless I answer "no" to "post?" at submission time.

What I'm saying is that Pine asks the question "post, mail, or both" 
twice, and it's a little sloppy the second time. In fact, if the post
fails, I might not want to mail, because that would mean I should
duplicate the mailing on the basis of an incorrect newgroups header alone.

That won't even work when sending to duplication-ignoring mailing lists
like yours. I think you should let your users use BRAINS to decide when to
post or mail, in that order, at submission time.

The feature would be especially useful NOW, when my newsreader is LISTING
comp.mail.pine, saying that it's invalid, and my sysadmins have the
"news-post-without-validation" flag fixed as disabled...exporting to TIN.

In the meantime, I guess I can just be notified of articles posted in
response to mine, and I'll reply to the post. There's a considerable delay
with moderated groups though.

I hav no problems with Windows users. I just have problems when they think
M$ invented the features in it, made them work together, or doesn't
try to cheat on taxes.

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 03:41:41 -0400

Author:        "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
	Original-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:12:51 -0500 (CDT)
	Message-ID:    <[email-masked]>

> Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not.
> Pine will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the
> bang path route that the article took to reach your news server, you will
> not be allowed to post a followup article to News.

Actually that's not quite true:

All you need is the Path: line and something in it.

I used to use

Path: Bogus path for PINE

and that would work.

You do have to have a Path: line though, or else it thinks it wasn't a  
newsgroup message.

I find this rather annoying personally.

TjL

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:59:20 -0600 (MDT)

> Path: Bogus path for PINE

Yes, and that's specifically what Pine documentation says you don't hav to
do and shouldn't do because you don't have to do.

Ever wonder why intelligent disobedience IS?

> I find this rather annoying personally.

Contradictions in what you're told to do to do what you want...and what
works are annoying.

Hmmm. Now comp.mail.pine is valid. Connection bugs? I remember that Pine
didn't try fetching the NG list again last time.

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:59:58 -0500 (CDT)

>From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email-masked]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 03:41:41 -0400

>You do have to have a Path: line though, or else it thinks it wasn't a  

Our friend to whom I was replying won't believe me on this point.

Well, I never tried it with a bogus Path. Thanks! I've occassionally copied a
Path from another article to get pine to post.

>I find this rather annoying personally.

Well, it's better than the alternative of some news and mail clients that see
the Newsgroups and assume (incorrectly) that the author means to post News.
Someone will be sure to post an example of another client that has a better
approach, I expect.

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:15:53 -0500 (CDT)

>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:14:11 -0600

>Sure I will. I can put the newsgroups header in if Pine doesn't.

Read what I just wrote a second time. On a reply, posting to News requires more
than adding a Newsgroups header. Pine won't inject the reply into the News
stream unless it thinks the original was News, not Mail.

>rapidly than the approval process completes.

Then you have no problem at all. Articles for moderated newsgroups are NEVER
injected into the news stream (unless a forgery!) but are mailed to the
moderator. So, mail it directly to the moderator's address!

>messy, unless I answer "no" to "post?" at submission time.

Does the gateway require a Newsgroups header? They usually don't. Normally, you
put the newsgroup name in the To. That's the whole point of the gateway: to
transform an ordinary Mail message into an article. Since Newsgroups isn't a
valid Mail header, a well-behaved gateway doesn't expenct to find one.

>duplicate the mailing on the basis of an incorrect newgroups header alone.

You aren't being clear; I'm not following. What second time?

>post or mail, in that order, at submission time.

Uh, you aren't on any of MY mailing lists.

>"news-post-without-validation" flag fixed as disabled...exporting to TIN.

Now, what are you talking about? You aren't attempting to post via NNTP?

>with moderated groups though.

Notified how? Someone forwards followups? You really are unclear on what you are
trying to do.

---

From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:56:51 -0600 (MDT)

> >>to post a followup article to News.

Actually, if you've read the message first, you'll have to delete Pine's
proprietary headers.

> moderator. So, mail it directly to the moderator's address!

Will they handle crossposting? I'd still have to put the NGs header in.

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:18:30 -0500 (CDT)

>From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email-masked]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:56:51 -0600 (MDT)

>>Articles for moderated newsgroups are NEVER injected into the news stream
>>(unless a forgery!) but are mailed to the moderator. So, mail it directly to
>>the moderator's address!

>Will they handle crossposting? I'd still have to put the NGs header in.

If there's a moderated group in the headers, it's sent to the moderator. If
there are multiple moderated groups, it's sent to the first moderator. It's up
to the first moderator to inject it into the newsstream.