Subject: Thanks, but no thanks, for the "improved" Pine 3.96

From: Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:21:30 -0500 (EST)

Dear People-at-Pine (assuming this gets through to you),
	I am getting more and more confused, and indeed upset, with the
new "improved" system of Pine 3.96 which my university has installed to
replace Pine 3.91. I wonder if my problems are unique.  Here are just some
of the reasons for my new confusions and irritations:
	1. It would seem that someone has decided that it would be a vast
improvement, in my previous "sent mail" folders, to erase all the names of
the persons to whom I sent e-mail and replace each and every one of them
with my own name.  I don't suppose there is anyway to retrieve all that
information.  Absent that, assuming there is some way to erase own name
and restore the names of the persons to who all that mail was sent, how
would I do that?  (Probable answer: don't ask, it can't be done.)  Even if
it could be done, it is a pain to think I have to go through each of them
individually, find out to whom it was sent, and then somehow change it on
the screen. But probably I should not worry.  I'll wake up tomorrow and
find out that in the meantime someone has simply erased all the sent mail
folders (see 2. below).  End of problem!
	2.  But wait, it gets worse.  It now seems that mail I have sent
out after January 1st (i.e., after the new system of Pine was up and
running, I guess) is no longer even recorded in my sent mail folder, not
even under my own name, let alone the names of recipients.  Guess I didn't
know I had it so good in 1. above, huh?  I trust the messages are getting
through, but it's anybody's guess.  (Hence my question in the opening
above whether you will even receive this one.)  So where (if anywhere) is
there a record of my sent mail NOW?  (Probable answer: don't ask, it
doesn't exist.)
	3. Probably related to 2., I note that here is a new line now
after "cc" on messages sent out, namely, "fcc".  Now when I send out a
letter an abbreviated name pops up automatically on "fcc".  Not knowing or
having been told what it is, I eliminate it each time.  Why?  Once I tried
sending something without doing that, and when it found there was "no such
file (with that person's name)", it simply refused to send the message.
So I went back to eliminating the entry after "fcc", so at least the
message could go out (though, since there is now no record, who knows if
it REALLY went out).
	So what on earth is this "fcc" all about?  Does it mean (related
back to 2. above), that if I want to have a record of mail sent, I now
have to create individual folders for each addressee to store my sent mail
in, otherwise there will be no record of having sent it out?  And if so,
to check my sent mail, I have to go through each and every individual
person's folder?
	I hope this is not so, because otherwise this vaunted improvement,
Pine 3.96, has become an nightmare.
	Conclusion:
	Assuming not a whole lot can be done about this "improved system",
perhaps I should switch, as my friends have been encouraging me to do, to
EUDORA, since it would appear that my refusal to switch earlier from Pine
to Eudora was based on misplaced loyalty to Pine.  I guess Eudora must be
the way to go from now on.  That way I can simply circumvent this new
"improved" version of Pine altogether.
	Idea:
	Perhaps, if my colleagues using Pine are suffering similar
indignities, I should recommend that they switch to Eudora too.  Perhaps
we can persuade the university to just forget about Pine. Yep, that's what
we should do.
	So, thanks for hearing me out.  You've been a big help, really!
	Yours for even further "improvements" to Pine!  Tom Dean
P.S.  I shall try to send a copy of this, as the "robot" advised, to the
web discussion group at "comp.mail.pine".  Perhaps THAT will get through,
and perhaps THEY will be interested to know.

---

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:04:46 -0600 (CST)

>From: Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:21:30 -0500 (EST)

>of the reasons for my new confusions and irritations:

STOP PANICKING. Relax, take a deep breath, control your own situation.

>information.

All the information is still there. What probably happened was your system
administrator got sick of all the complaints of the nature, "How come when I
send mail (or news), the recipient's (or newsgroup's) name appears in the
index, instead of my name?" and changed the setting in the system-wide
configuration file. So, override it in your own configuration file!

As an experienced pine user, you are familiar with the configuration file,
right? You are familiar with reading the context-sensitive help, right? 3.96
has many additional features. Look at the configuration file, and if there is a
feature you don't understand or don't recognize, read the context-sensitive
help. It's that simple.

The feature that was changed is "index-format", and the FROMORTO token was
replaced with FROM. Read the context-sensitive help with this feature, and
choose the tokens that best suit your needs.

>even under my own name, let alone the names of recipients.

You did this yourself, as you explain in 3.

>to check my sent mail, I have to go through each and every individual

"fcc" means "file carbon copy", which has been a feature of pine since the
beginning. You may not have noticed it before, as it may have been a rich
header, not revealed until you press ^r. If you want to know about it, READ THE
CONTEXT-SENSITIVE HELP.

It is simply a way of saving a copy of an outgoing message on your own system.
Even if you are able to save a sent message, it hasn't necessarily left your
system due to other problems. You don't know unless your recipient tells you
he actually received it.

If you continuously delete the "fcc" line, your message won't be saved
anywhere. In the context-sensitive help, read about "customized-hdrs" and
"fcc-name-rule" from the configuration file. Also, read the context-sensitive
help in the address book for naming customized sent-mail folders for specific
correspondents. And, read about "folder-collections" from the configuration
file and the List folders screen.

>to Eudora was based on misplaced loyalty to Pine.

Well, if you refuse to read the help text or learn the program, you won't have
any greater satisfaction with Eudora.

---

From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email-masked]>
Date: 04 Jan 1998 01:51:10 +0100

>> "TJD" == Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]> whined:

[Thomas J. Dean has new confusions and irritations]
TJD> 1. It would seem that someone has decided that it would be a vast
TJD> improvement, in my previous "sent mail" folders, to erase all the
TJD> names of the persons to whom I sent e-mail and replace each and
TJD> every one of them with my own name.

That's a FAQ, Thomas.

TJD> 2.  It now seems that mail I have sent out after January 1st
TJD> (i.e., after the new system of Pine was up and running, I guess)
TJD> is no longer even recorded in my sent mail folder, not even
TJD> under my own name, let alone the names of recipients.

That's a FAQ, Thomas.

TJD> 3. Probably related to 2., I note that here is a new line now
TJD> after "cc" on messages sent out, namely, "fcc".    So what on
TJD> earth is this "fcc" all about? 

That's a FAQ, Thomas.

TJD> Conclusion: Assuming not a whole lot can be done about this
TJD> "improved system", perhaps I should switch, as my friends have
TJD> been encouraging me to do, to EUDORA, since it would appear that
TJD> my refusal to switch earlier from Pine to Eudora was based on
TJD> misplaced loyalty to Pine.  I guess Eudora must be the way to go
TJD> from now on.

Absolutely correct, Thomas. Eudora is much simpler to use, the knowledge
base of the people supporting it on the net is much higher, and commercial
software is always better than free software.

TJD> Idea: Perhaps, if my colleagues using Pine are suffering similar
TJD> indignities, I should recommend that they switch to Eudora too.

Yes, please do that, Thomas.

TJD> Perhaps we can persuade the university to just forget about
TJD> Pine. Yep, that's what we should do.

Correct, Thomas. "Heute die Uni und morgen die ganze Welt." 

TJD> You've been a big help, really!  Yours for even further
TJD> "improvements" to Pine!

Thomas? Are you there? Have you talked to some professional about your
problems yet? You know, it's not that we don't like you... It's just
that you have this attitude problem that makes reading your larmoyant
drivel really, really revolting.

TJD> I shall try to send a copy of this, as the "robot" advised, to
TJD> the web discussion group at "comp.mail.pine".  Perhaps THAT will
TJD> get through, and perhaps THEY will be interested to know.

Great idea, Thomas. Please do that. I will gladly provide you with some
more in-depth information about your attitude problem there. However,
since this is a mailing list that is read by kind and helpful people,
I'll spare you for now. See you on the usenet, Thomas. Don't forget to
wear an asbestos suit.

Robin

-- 
Robin S. Socha
This message brought to you by Microsoft. Inventors of multitasking,
windowing, graphical user interfaces, the 32 bit OS, the Internet, the
wheel, fire, air, and God.

---

From: Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:34:16 -0500 (EST)

Robin,
        Many thanks for matching my sarcastic attitude!  At least it was a
response from a real person, not the "robot"  However, you might also be
interested in the following reply from Steve Lowe which managed to
overlook or see past my attitude problem and offer some real help (though
I will have to get help to figure out how to look at something called the
".pinerc file").
        Meantime, as to your response, I did look at the FAQ and did find
an answer to one of my questions.  But I was not successful in finding
answers to the others, or if they were there, I was unable to recognize
them (you're probably not surprised by that).
        So, what you could do to also be of real help, if you're so
inclined, in addition to simply "agreeing" with each of my ill-tempered 
remarks, would be to tell me WHICH of the FAQ's (which I note were
numbered) answer each of my problems.  If you're not so inclined, I can't
say as I blame you.
        Hoping (beyond hope?), Tom

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 18:36:09 -0600
From: Steve Lowe <[email-masked]>
To: Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Thanks, but no thanks, for the "improved" Pine 3.96
Thomas --
As a data center manager, we have made the transition several times over
the past three years to different versions of Pine.  We have not noticed
the problems that you outlined in your message.

I can only one of them--the 'fcc' line.  'fcc' indicates the default mail
folder where your sent mail is stored -- might be related to the    
disappearing copies of your sent mail.  Pine 3.96 allows the user to store
his outgoing mail messages in any folder that he/she desires.  If the
folder does not exist, Pine 3.96 will prompt you for folder creation.

I would check your .pinerc file and ensure that extra characters have not
been added to the default sent mail folder entry.  This might clear up your
problem.

HTH.
 -- Steve Lowe
    Director, Computing and Information Services
    Aurora University
---------------------------------------------------

> >> "TJD" == Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]> whined:
	[He sure did!  :=) ]

> TJD> every one of them with my own name.
	[Which one, Robin; and, how do I get all the original names of the
addressees back?]
> TJD> under my own name, let alone the names of recipients.
	[Which one, bitte?]
> TJD> earth is this "fcc" all about? 
	[I think Steve has helped with this one.]

> problems yet? 
	[Well, that's sort of what I was hoping for from YOU professionals
...sigh]

> You know, it's not that we don't like you... It's just
	[Assuming you do in fact speak for "we", I am properly chastised.]

> I'll spare you for now. See you on the usenet, Thomas. Don't forget to
	[If this singeing is any example, ouch!]

> wheel, fire, air, and God.
	[Well, I don't know about all of the above, but I sure felt that
hot breath of fire!  Here's hoping for more Steve's and fewer Robin's--and
then fewer me's. Dare I hope?]

---

From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email-masked]>
Date: 04 Jan 1998 04:24:38 +0100

>> "TJD" == Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]> writes:

TJD> Robin, Many thanks for matching my sarcastic attitude!

Good to see you have a sense of humour. ]:->

TJD> I will have to get help to figure out how to look at something called
TJD> the ".pinerc file").

You know pico, the editor you write your emails with. Yes, it's a
stand-alone app, too. So say:
	    pico ~/.pinerc
to edit your personal pine configuration file. But say
	    cp ~/.pinerc ~/pinerc.sic
first. 

[...]
TJD> 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:
>> "TJD" == Thomas J Dean wrote:
TJD> "sent mail"
>> That's a FAQ, Thomas.
TJD> [Which one, Robin; and, how do I get all the original names of
TJD> the addressees back?]

<http://franck.pc.uni-koeln.de/~robin/user.guide/node112.html>
"Why does my message index show From: instead of To:?"

No, wait. I suck. You're right - that's abnormal. I just
checked. Ummm... HELP! Are you sure you didn't change anything with
your mail folders? From a short glance at pine, I cannot even begin to
understand how this could happen. You could say "less" on one of the
folders to check if they're ok.

TJD> 2.  It now seems that mail I have sent out after January 1st
TJD> is no longer even recorded in my sent mail folder, not even under
TJD> my own name, let alone the names of recipients.
>> That's a FAQ, Thomas.
TJD> [Which one, bitte?]

I don't know. It should be one. Whatever... You need to set 
default-saved-msg-folder = <No Value Set: using "saved-messages">
in M(ain) S(etup) C(onfig). From the online help:

         OPTION: Default-Saved-Msg-Folder
This option determines the default folder name for Saves...  If
this is not a path name, it will be in the default collection for
saves.  Any valid folder specification, local or IMAP, is allowed.
This default folder only applies when the saved-msg-name-rule (see
later in this configuration screen) doesn't override it.  Unix
Pine default is normally "saved-messages" in the default folder
collection. PC-Pine default is "SAVEMAIL" (normally stored as
SAVEMAIL.MTX)
FOR MORE INFORMATION: From the Main Menu, select "L FOLDER LIST" and
press "?" for Help... Look for the section "Valid Folder Names".

Make sure that one is properly set and that your admin didn't set them 
to something weird.

>> Thomas? Are you there? Have you talked to some professional about
>> your problems yet?
TJD> [Well, that's sort of what I was hoping for from YOU professionals
TJD> ....sigh]

I'm not a professional. I'm just... errr... I was... Shoot. I've been
a professional for three days now. Oh dear...

TJD> [Well, I don't know about all of the above, but I sure felt that
TJD> hot breath of fire!  Here's hoping for more Steve's and fewer
TJD> Robin's--and then fewer me's. Dare I hope?]

No.

Cheers,
Robin

-- 
Robin S. Socha
Political Science Dept., Bonn University 
One question: How come the .44 magnum is the worlds only usable point
and click interface ?					     Alan Cox

---

From: Thomas J Dean <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:52:16 -0500 (EST)

Robin,
	Many thanks for bearing with me and helping out with the below.  I
am beginning to suspect that, as you say, the problem may lie with how the
local admin installed things when they did the conversion from 3.91 to
3.96 over the holidays.  And since I don't understand all the technical
aspects you refer to below, I think my best course of action is to take
all these problems back to the local folks and see what they make of it
all.  They should be back from New Year's break tomorrow.  Fingers
crossed! (Final word at end of following...)

>  No.
	[Robin, Good! I take it back.  Let's have lots more Steve's AND
Robin's--and perhaps you'll let me hang around a bit longer too!] 
	Cheers and Happy New Year to Robin and ALL the Pine gang!
			Tom