Subject: Re: your mail [loss of work with carrier drops]

From: Paul O Bartlett <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:18:22 -0500

On 30 Mar 1997, Edward M Greshko wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Big Chief Crazy Cone wrote:
> 
> > [Regarding the loss of a message under composition when 
> > [the carrier dropped on a dial-up connection]
> 
> 	Sorry, your message is lost.  
> 
> 	There is another message in its place, however.  That message is
> something everyone should know.  *Never* type in a long (or even short)
> important email over a dialup connection.  [...]

    I do not entirely agree, Ed.  Your advice may be sound if one is
using Pine's rather wimpy built-in composer, but the problem may not
occur (or, at least, so severely) if one is using an alternate editor,
as permitted in the Pine configuration.

    For example, I use Joe 2.8 as my editor on a Un*x system.  (I
should specify that that latter fact is highly relevant.)  From time 
to time I experience a carrier drop when I am composing.  When the
connection breaks, Un*x sends a signal to my immediately active
process, Joe, which writes the workspace out to my current directory
under a reserved name.  Then Un*x cleans up and terminates the session. 
When I log back on, I can start the composition again and read in the
saved file, losing no more than a few keystrokes, and sometimes not
even that.  I presume that other, more sophisticated editors than the
Pine composer, could do the same thing under Un*x.  I haven't lost any
work yet, and I _do_ suffer carrier drops.

Paul                             <[email-masked]>
----------------------------------------------------------
Paul O. Bartlett, P.O. Box 857, Vienna, VA 22183-0857, USA
Finger, keyserver, or WWW for PGP 2.6.2 public key
Home Page:  http://www.access.digex.net/~pobart

---

From: Robin S Socha <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:15:53 +0200 (CEST)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

  >as permitted in the Pine configuration.

[snipped eloquent praise of joe]

*clapclap* I think Paul's remark is really touching a sore spot with pine.
Pico really isn't that great and joe isn't that much bigger. Is there any
reason for pico being distributed along with pine instead of joe? I don't
see any real disadvantages that joe might have. Besides, it can be run as
jpico... :-/

So, imvho, either pico needs some improvements (like better yanking,
foolproof autosave and a couple of other small things) or maybe joe might
just be a better alternative. And yes, I don't like vim, Sven >;->

Later,
Robin

- -----
Robin S. Socha,
Political Science Dept., Bonn University, Bonn
Key fingerprint = 7F F2 84 73 CF E9 2C 92  F6 6E F9 B4 8F FE AC 1E
To get my pgp public key, send an e-mail with the subject "get pgp-key"

GMC d++ s+:+ a- C++ UL++$>+++$ P+>++$ E>+ W- N+ o@ w--- M-- PS--- PE+++ Y+
PGP++>+++ t+() 5-- tv++(+) b+++ DI++ D+(++) G++>+++ e++>+++ h r++>+++ y+**

	What the world needs now is killfiles that actually kill.

---

From: "Kevin J. Sinclair" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)

You don't need Joe, etc to have your work be saved.  I use Pine 3.95
with the so-called 'wimpy' internal editor, and my work is not lost if
the connection is lost.  It is saved.  It seems like magic...  I think
it has to do more with how the system is setup than the particular
editor you are using.

Kevin

---

From: "Kevin J. Sinclair" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:21:57 -0800 (PST)

On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Robin S Socha wrote:
->*clapclap* I think Paul's remark is really touching a sore spot with pine.
->Pico really isn't that great and joe isn't that much bigger. Is there any
->reason for pico being distributed along with pine instead of joe? I don't
->see any real disadvantages that joe might have. Besides, it can be run as
->jpico... :-/

Pine is designed to be simple, and Pico is simple.  I have talked with
Pine developers before about this, such as about an idea to add a new
feature to Pine/Pico, and they are really set on this point.  And I
agree with them.  I use Pine a lot, and I like it simple so I can type
very quickly and not worry about having too many commands.  And by
being simple, new users can get up to speed quickly.  The only thing I
miss in Pine/Pico is a search capability.

Kevin

---

From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:35:59 -0800 (PST)

Big Chief,
Pine does attempt to detect "hangups" and preserve your work;
however, for reasons not yet understood, it doesn't always succeed.

As a backup, recent versions of Pine will write a checkpoint file
every 250 keystrokes or so.  These will be in your home directory
with names like  #pico23005#

Hope this helps...

-teg

On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Big Chief Crazy Cone wrote:

> I just spent all day writing an assigment for my economics class.  The
> moment I finished and went to proofread, the cursor froze and the words 
> NO CARRIER
> appeared on the screen.  I was forced to quit the program.  I reconnected
> and found that my paper had been completely lost. This has happened
> before, usually it asks if I want to continue with my interrupted message.
> What I wrote was very good, I don't want nor have the time to do it again.
> Can you please help me to find my lost message?  The method I used for the
> address was to pull up an old letter and simply press 'R' for reply - if
> that information helps at all.  the address was
> [email-masked].  Please help me.
> 
>

---

From: Robin S Socha <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST)

>->Is there any reason for pico being distributed along with pine instead
  >->of joe? I don't see any real disadvantages that joe might have.
  >->Besides, it can be run as jpico... :-/
  >
  >Pine is designed to be simple, and Pico is simple.  

But so is jpico.

  >I have talked with Pine developers before about this, such as about an
  >idea to add a new feature to Pine/Pico, and they are really set on this
  >point. 

Ok, so much for that discussion then :-)

  >And I agree with them. I use Pine a lot, and I like it simple so I can
  >type very quickly and not worry about having too many commands. And by

Have you ever tried yanking a message like yours with pico? When I started
using pine, I did, and 2 minutes later, I had an alternative editor set up.
Yanking with pico is a pain, and it would certainly not have got me "up to
speed" having had to yank your message manually --- quite the contrary :-/

As for "having too many commands", I have to disagree --- these are the
commands you get with jpico, and you could of course take away some for
beginners (hope this comes out ok...) :

##############################################################################
   Help Screen    turn off with ^G     more help with ^[. (ESC .)

CURSOR           GO TO            BLOCK      DELETE    MISC         EXIT
^B left ^F right ^[Y top of file  ^^  mark   ^D  char  ^J   format  ^X save
^P up   ^N down  ^[V end of file  ^K  cut    ^K  line  ^T   spell   ^C abort
^Y prev. screen  ^A  beg. of line ^U  paste  ^[K >line ^[T  file    ^Z shell
^V next screen   ^E  end of line  ^[U select ^[H word< ^L   refresh FILE
^@  prev. word   ^[L line No.     ^O  save   ^[D >word ^[^[ options ^O save
^_  next word    ^W  find text    ^[/ filter ^[- undo  ^[=  redo    ^R insert
##############################################################################

I cannot see what's too complicated with that. But then again, I'm using
emacs... >:->

Cheers,
Robin

  Robin S. Socha	  | Bonner Talweg 56  | Tel:   +49 228 22217-8
  Political Science Dept. | 53113 Bonn        | Fax:   +49 228 22217-9
  Bonn University  	  | Germany           | email: [email-masked]

       On the package it said: "Requires MS Windows 3.11 or better"  
	       			      ...  so I got myself Linux.

---

From: [email-masked] (Sylvain Robitaille)
Date: 3 Apr 1997 03:21:38 GMT

>miss in Pine/Pico is a search capability.

When viewing a message, press 'w', to search for a word. When composing a
message, (in the highly exalted pico editor), press '^W', for the same
command.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille
[email-masked]          http://alcor.concordia.ca/~sp_robi

I used to be a FUNDAMENTALIST, but then I heard about the HIGH
RADIATION LEVELS and bought an ENCYCLOPEDIA!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott Norwood)
Date: 3 Apr 1997 03:53:45 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>message, (in the highly exalted pico editor), press '^W', for the same

Much as I enjoy using Pine as my regular mail program (albeit with
enable-alternate-editor-implicitly set to vim), I would prefer that it
stick to the standard UNIX conventions (like ctrl-U to erase the current
line rather than ctrl-K; using '/' to search rather than ctrl-W).

Otherwise, yes, it is actually a model program in how it manages to achieve
an acceptible compromise between simplicity and usability (and it is _very_
usable, when combined with a decent editor and procmail).

-- 
Scott Norwood:  [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
Lame Home Page #1:  http://balloon.ml.org/          <-- School year only
Lame Home Page #2:  http://www.nyx.net/~snorwood/   <-- Regular page
Lame Quote:  Be different:  conform.