Subject: Re: Who's fault ? Pine ? Mine ? Yours ?

From: [email-masked] (Bev)
Date: 16 Sep 1996 04:36:59 GMT

Clint Danbury ([email-masked]) wrote:
| I could not receive the test of the message.  
| I also could not receive the text of the error; I believe that I remember
| something about the word "connection" in there.
| So, anyway, did I cause this error ?  Did my service provider cause this
| error ?  Did  pine cause this error ?

	Wild-assed guess here, based on my own experience.  The problem
was probably caused by something your service provider did or didn't do. 
Shit happens. Somebody flips a switch.  Somebody makes an error when
reconfiguring something. Somebody falls over a wire. Somebody spills his
coffee into the works. Lightning strikes something important.  Happens all
the time, but it's just part of the game.  

	Try to repeat what you did as soon as possible.  If it burps
again, try to email or phone your provider immediately and tell him what
happened.  It's really annoying that error messages disappear so quickly.
Can your terminal software do scrollbacks?  Procomm (pcplus) can, and I'd
guess that most other software can do it too.  Really useful for LOTS of
stuff that passes by too quickly to see.

| Should I  quit using Pine ?  Is this common with pine ?

	Not common, and probably doesn't have anything to do with pine. 
I've used it on two different systems in 3 years, and like it a lot.  Easy
to use, capable, etc.  (BTW, there may be a file called something like
dead.letter in your home directory or maybe your mail directory -- pine
tries to save things for you if it can.  If it's there, copy it to some
other filename before it gets overwritten by another dead letter, and
you're back in business.) 

| What's the best way to avoid this in the future ?  Nix telnet and pay for
| a real telephone call ?  

	Don't know how to avoid it, but your provider(s) might be able to
explain what happened.  If you're writing something long, you might either
save it frequently or compose it off-line and upload it when you log in. 
(Yeah, like I do it *all* the time myself!  Like I've never lost
*anything* because I'm always soooooo careful!)

Bev                                             [email-masked]
***************************************************************
"I drive entirely too fast to be worried about the food I eat."
            					  -- M. Carlton

---

From: Paul Grosso <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Sep 1996 16:01:24 GMT

In wco.general Clint Danbury <[email-masked]> wrote:

: I'm using telnet, and so I have become accustomed to the cursor not
: responding to my keystrokes.  I have also become accustomed to waiting for
: actions to occur; frequently 30-to-90 seconds or so.

You're using Pine to post to the usenet?  Try using tin - the right
program for the right job.  Chances are you lost connection with the
newsserver if you took a long time to make a post but knowing what the
error message was would help - a whole lot.  Trying to figure out the
answer to a problem when the only clue is "It didn't work" is not that
easy. 

Also - it's very rare that the response time using my shell account is
that delayed.  It happens now and then for a few seconds but not 30-90
seconds.  If you're looking for a place to lay blame, it sounds like
something is wrong with the configuration of your comm program, modem
settings or port configuration.  I don't think those LONG delays are a
regular thing.  Is anyone else having those sort of problems?

 - Paul

----------------
Paul Grosso
[email-masked]
http://www.wco.com/~paulg/

---

From: paul theodoropoulos <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Sep 1996 16:13:49 GMT

: Tonight I just spent about 15 minutes composing a message to a newsgroup.
[deletia]
: So, anyway, did I cause this error ?  Did my service provider cause this
: error ?  Did  pine cause this error ?

: Should I  quit using Pine ?  Is this common with pine ?
[further deletia]

Three points: First - since this is cross-posted to comp.mail.pine, I
should note that Mr. Danbury telnets into our system from another state,
from a disjoint network. So sluggishness/choppiness could occur anywhere
along the path from there to here and back again. 

Second: MCI issued an advisory concerning assorted routing problems across
their backbone at about the time that Mr. Danbury was experiencing
difficulties. So I would assume that that is what was causing the problems
at that time.

Third: Here's a traceroute I just ran to the site Mr. Danbury connects
from. I think there may be serious problems elsewhere... 

traceroute to news.ti.com (192.94.94.33), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  hssi.wco.com (199.4.94.90)  4 ms  3 ms  2 ms
 2  gw2 (204.70.161.65)  12 ms  25 ms  11 ms
 3  borderx1-fddi-1.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.158.52)  10 ms  20 ms  17
ms
 4  core1-hssi-2.Bloomington.mci.net (204.70.1.41)  49 ms  31 ms  228 ms
 5  166.48.76.1 (166.48.76.1)  56 ms  58 ms  63 ms
 6  core1-hssi-3.Houston.mci.net (204.70.1.122)  94 ms  92 ms  61 ms
 7  core1-hssi-3.Houston.mci.net (204.70.1.122)  61 ms  61 ms  65 ms
 8  border1-fddi-0.Houston.mci.net (204.70.2.98)  84 ms  87 ms  235 ms
 9  sesquinet.Houston.mci.net (204.70.36.6)  60 ms  60 ms  66 ms
10  HOU1-F10.SESQUI.NET (192.67.13.181)  68 ms  63 ms  65 ms
11  HOU4-F20.SESQUI.NET (128.241.200.84)  65 ms  60 ms  240 ms
12  128.241.75.34 (128.241.75.34)  127 ms  111 ms  124 ms
13  TI-S1.SESQUI.NET (128.241.5.178)  150 ms  152 ms  711 ms
14  * * *
15  * * *
16  * * *
17  * * *
18  * * *
19  * * *
20  * * *
21  * *^C

-- 
Paul Theodoropoulos      [email-masked]
Vice President
West Coast Online, Inc.

		The Nicest Guy on the Internet

---

From: Pete Childress <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:37:12 -0700

> regular thing.  Is anyone else having those sort of problems?

Only when I telnet to shell.wco.com from work through the proxy... Delays are both 
noticeable and annoying, but it's more the proxy's fault than wco's...

-Pete

---

From: Pete Childress <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:53:18 -0700

Um, I don't think I left anything out... merely said I think the proxy at 
work slows it down. I don't allow my users modem connections (for security
reasons), and I don't do it myself, to set the example.

-Pete

Paul Grosso wrote:
> 
> Geeze, you kind of left some important information out of the mix, didn't
> you?  Yeah, the shell account is pretty slow when you telnet in from
> somewhere else.  I do this on a pretty regular basis from my work in the
> East Bay and there are long delays - all you need to do is dial in direct
> and you'll see that the problems are the connection getting to WCO - not
> WCO.
> 
>  - Paul
> 
> ---------------------------
> Paul Grosso
> [email-masked]
> In wco.general Pete Childress <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> : Paul Grosso wrote:
> : >
> : > In wco.general Clint Danbury <[email-masked]> wrote:
> : >
> : > : I'm using telnet, and so I have become accustomed to the cursor not
> : > : responding to my keystrokes.  I have also become accustomed to waiting for
> : > : actions to occur; frequently 30-to-90 seconds or so.
> : >
> : > You're using Pine to post to the usenet?  Try using tin - the right
> : > program for the right job.  Chances are you lost connection with the
> : > newsserver if you took a long time to make a post but knowing what the
> : > error message was would help - a whole lot.  Trying to figure out the
> : > answer to a problem when the only clue is "It didn't work" is not that
> : > easy.
> : >
> : > Also - it's very rare that the response time using my shell account is
> : > that delayed.  It happens now and then for a few seconds but not 30-90
> : > seconds.  If you're looking for a place to lay blame, it sounds like
> : > something is wrong with the configuration of your comm program, modem
> : > settings or port configuration.  I don't think those LONG delays are a
> : > regular thing.  Is anyone else having those sort of problems?
> : >
> : >  - Paul
> : >
> : > ----------------
> : > Paul Grosso
> : > [email-masked]
> : > http://www.wco.com/~paulg/
> 
> : Only when I telnet to shell.wco.com from work through the proxy... Delays are both
> : noticeable and annoying, but it's more the proxy's fault than wco's...
> 
> : -Pete

---

From: Tom Zerucha <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 12:05 EDT

I am using Linux pine 3.95.  When I browse an index and mark several
messages as deleted, and start reading, or go back from reading to the
index, pine often stops and does something that requires lots of disk
accessing (maybe it is checkpointing the mailbox).  It is not swapping
pages in virtual memory, and there is no banner saying what it is doing,
but it will lock up for several seconds to a minute (the more messages the
longer), but remember keystrokes.  Expunging takes the same amount of
time, but isn't any faster after one of these apopletic seizures.

Why does it do this, and how do I make it stop.

(please cc my actual account as well as responding to the list)

[email-masked]
finger [email-masked] for PGP key

---

From: Clint Danbury <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 22:54:44 -0700

I'm using telnet, and so I have become accustomed to the cursor not
responding to my keystrokes.  I have also become accustomed to waiting for
actions to occur; frequently 30-to-90 seconds or so.

Tonight I just spent about 15 minutes composing a message to a newsgroup.

I gave pine the send command, and the little  "propeller" did its thing
for a long time, then told me  that something went wrong, and that was the
end of the whole thing.  

I could not receive the test of the message.  

I also could not receive the text of the error; I believe that I remember
something about the word "connection" in there.

So, anyway, did I cause this error ?  Did my service provider cause this
error ?  Did  pine cause this error ?

Should I  quit using Pine ?  Is this common with pine ?

Oh, incidentally, the subject of the article was dealing with internic,
and the  newsgroup was the thing on domains, I don't have scrolling turned
on my software here, so I can't give all the details like I want to do.

Anyway, whom is the most likely  culprit in this event, me ?  My service
provider ?  Pine ?  internic ?  Gumby and Pokey ?

What's the best way to avoid this in the future ?  Nix telnet and pay for
a real telephone call ?  

Thanks go to anyone who provides answers and advice which work in real
life.

Clint

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---

From: Paul Grosso <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:39:52 GMT

Not you Pete, the original poster, who couldn't figure out why he was
having certain problems that we aren't. He was telnetting in from out of
state. 

 - Paul

: Um, I don't think I left anything out... merely said I think the proxy at 
: work slows it down. I don't allow my users modem connections (for security
: reasons), and I don't do it myself, to set the example.

: -Pete

: Paul Grosso wrote:
: > 
: > Geeze, you kind of left some important information out of the mix, didn't
: > you?  Yeah, the shell account is pretty slow when you telnet in from
: > somewhere else.  I do this on a pretty regular basis from my work in the
: > East Bay and there are long delays - all you need to do is dial in direct
: > and you'll see that the problems are the connection getting to WCO - not
: > WCO.
: > 
: >  - Paul
: > 
: > ---------------------------
: > Paul Grosso
: > [email-masked]
: > http://www.wco.com/~paulg/
: > 
: > In wco.general Pete Childress <[email-masked]> wrote:
: > 
: > : Paul Grosso wrote:
: > : >
: > : > In wco.general Clint Danbury <[email-masked]> wrote:
: > : >
: > : > : I'm using telnet, and so I have become accustomed to the cursor not
: > : > : responding to my keystrokes.  I have also become accustomed to waiting for
: > : > : actions to occur; frequently 30-to-90 seconds or so.
: > : >
: > : > You're using Pine to post to the usenet?  Try using tin - the right
: > : > program for the right job.  Chances are you lost connection with the
: > : > newsserver if you took a long time to make a post but knowing what the
: > : > error message was would help - a whole lot.  Trying to figure out the
: > : > answer to a problem when the only clue is "It didn't work" is not that
: > : > easy.
: > : >
: > : > Also - it's very rare that the response time using my shell account is
: > : > that delayed.  It happens now and then for a few seconds but not 30-90
: > : > seconds.  If you're looking for a place to lay blame, it sounds like
: > : > something is wrong with the configuration of your comm program, modem
: > : > settings or port configuration.  I don't think those LONG delays are a
: > : > regular thing.  Is anyone else having those sort of problems?
: > : >
: > : >  - Paul
: > : >
: > : > ----------------
: > : > Paul Grosso
: > : > [email-masked]
: > : > http://www.wco.com/~paulg/
: > 
: > : Only when I telnet to shell.wco.com from work through the proxy... Delays are both
: > : noticeable and annoying, but it's more the proxy's fault than wco's...
: > 
: > : -Pete