Subject: The quality of your software

From: [email-masked] (Steve Harrington)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:06:18 -0600

I am a new and very dissatisfied user of your software. The  last time I
had do deal with such conflicted software was in the early 80's at Control
Data. The level of inconsistency between command sets in different screens,
editors, functions etc is unbelievable and unacceptable. If I ever have the
opportunity to offer an opinion to another unfortunate user about Pine,
your development team or the quality of software products licensed from the
University of Washington, please know where I stand. For you to inflict
this software on as you say: "literally millions of people around the
world, and thousands more every day" is dishonest. You should include in
your FAQ a method for users to replace your product with something that
actually works.

Steve Harrington
[email-masked]

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From: Steven Feinholz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:37:36 -0800 (PST)

> your FAQ a method for users to replace your product with something that

Considering how many happy users there are, you may be in the minority.

May be it is just you.

But to come across with just disdain as you have will only make
people just hit the <DEL> button on the email.

Maybe you should try to be a little constructive with your
criticism (sp).

______________________________________________________________________
 ====  AT&T GIS  | Steven Feinholz        | VOICEplus: 427-5945
=--=== (Insert   | Client Software        | Phone:     (310) 524-5945
=--===  New Name | 100 N. Sepulveda Blvd. | FAX:       (310) 524-5515
 ====   Here)    | El Segundo, Ca  90245  | [email-masked]
______________________________________________________________________

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From: Ed Greshko <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:24:32 +0800 (GMT)

> your FAQ a method for users to replace your product with something that

	Wow....my first thought was that you must be working for the
competition.  But, I thought about it a bit more and came to the conclusion
that that could not be the case.

	You may not be aware of this, but "pine" is a *freely* distributed
email UA.  It was written at the University of Washington for use at the
U.  The individuals working on the "pine" team work for the U.  It was
decided to release the software *freely* for anyone to use *as they choose*.

	I searched the pine source and was unable to find the quote you cite.
I was able to find, "There are now hundreds of thousands of Pine users in 
over 40 countries".  So, maybe you have exaggerated slightly?

	In any case, you are free to use pine if you wish.  If you don't
like it....then you don't have to use it.  So, I doubt the term "inflict"
is appropriate.

	This mailing list and newsgroup serves as a vehicle for people to
discuss pine.  The people on this list generally discuss the good points,
bad points, and offer constructive criticism on pine.  I'm sure if you
take the time to draw up a list of the problems you have experienced the
folks of this list and the U would be most happy to consider what you have
to say.  You do point out that you are a "new" user of pine.  I would think
that also means you are new to this newsgroup/list.  If that is the case
you are unaware that the "Pine Team" is open to suggestion from the user
communitiy.  This is true, even if the Internet user community is not the
ones paying their salaries.  (Please note: "open to suggestion" does not
mean that they will implement features or change the behaviour of pine 
solely on the comments/request of a single individual.  The fact that
they may decide against your suggestion does not imply that they did not
consider your proposal.)

	However, if you feel you there is no hope for pine and nothing you
can contribute will help to fix the problems then you should switch to
a different and better user agent.  And, by all means, let the other around
you know about it.  People should be happy with their user agents.  And,
if fact, many people are very happy with pine.

	But, what do I know?  I'm working for that other horrible company.

	Oh, BTW, when you were unhappy with Control Data's software did
you submit a PSR (Programming Systems Report)?  

	Good Luck....

			Ed

Edward M. Greshko                       Technical Manager, Electronic Commerce
                                        Control Data Asia/Pacific Region
Voice: +886-2-715-2222 x287             6/F, 131 Nanking East Road, Section 3
FAX  : +886-2-712-9197                  Taipei, Taiwan R.O.C

---

From: David L Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:16:13 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Ed Greshko wrote:

> > editors, functions etc is unbelievable and unacceptable.

Could you please be more specific?  As pointed out by others, we are
open to specific suggestions from everyone.

> > If I ever have the

We don't have the resources to review other vendors' software.  There
is nothing about the default Pine configuration that would adversly
affect other products.  Thus the "method for users to to replace" Pine
is simply to install the new software according to the vendor's
instructions.

> decided to release the software *freely* for anyone to use *as they choose*.

Correct.  We do what we can for users outside the U, and consider all
sugestions, because we find that serves to improve Pine for everyone.
With several hundred messages/week coming in, we have to scan through
them pretty quickly though...

> over 40 countries".  So, maybe you have exaggerated slightly?

I believe the note in the source was written before we had a good
handle on how widely distributed Pine has become.  I believe the
"millions of users" phrase has been used by Pine Team members in the
pine-info list.  At last count, we have received some form of e-mail
from over 2.4 million Pine users.  We don't have any statistics about
how many of them are "happy" with Pine or still using Pine.

--DLM

|\ |  |\/|  David L. Miller    [email-masked]  (206) 685-6240
|/ |_ |  |  Software Engineer, Pine Development Team   (206) 685-4045 (FAX)
University of Washington, Networks & Distributed Computing, JE-20
4545 15th Ave NE, Seattle WA 98105, USA

---

From: Jim Esten <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:37:40 -0600 (CST)

How about getting over your unwillingness to learn a product which you 
DON'T have to pay for!  You evidentally haven't looked at what else is 
available!  My users were thrilled the day I installed pine and have had 
nothing but good things to say since.  If you are having problems with 
the product, it is more likely that your provider has crippled some 
functions to keep you from shooting yourself right squarely in the head!

Jim Esten
Sys Admin, Cardinal Stritch College
Technical Consultant, Computer Power Group

	...and a big pine fan!

---

From: Anuj Agrawal <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:32:34 -0600 (CST)

Dear sir,
   i'm afraid i have to disagree with your comments. I work in a 
university where i have contact with new users day in day out. We have 2 
different email UAs, one is VMS MAIL, and the other is Pine. After 
introducing Pine to everyone i meet (and this averages 10 per day), they 
love Pine so much that they can't get enough of it. VMS MAIL gets chucked 
out the window. Pine has always been preferred. Please give it a chance 
and you will (hopefully) love it too. 8) .. LONG LIVE PINE ! 8)
   have a good one. 8)
nuj.

---

From: Byrg Bonnelycke <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:40:28 -0500 (EST)

Hi, to Steve Harrington:
I have been using Pine for a very long time.
It is an excellent e-mail program!

I admit it takes a little effort to learn the advanced features, like 
1) using a .forward file with the UNIX filter() function to direct 
   incoming mail AUTOMATIALLY to some of your Pine folders as well 
   as to other I'net addresses;
2) using Pine to retrieve selected Usenet Newsgroups AUTOMATICALLY.

But cheer up!  If you track this mailing list, you too can learn;  I did.
BTW,  you'll notice there is a message here about the Pine archive files,
which undoubtedly contains MUCH info for newbies.  
Also try the FAQ's often mentioned in this mailing list.

Greetings,  Byrg      (a Pine fan!)
     *---------------------------------------------------------------*
     |  FROM:  Byrg E. Bonnelycke        Millkern User Support Team  |
     |	       [email-masked]        Rockville, MD, USA          |
     *---------------------------------------------------------------*

---

From: Rick Nebel <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:41:12 -0600 (CST)

I think I would demand a refund of all the money you paid for it.

---

From: Ron Delgado <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:31:10 -0800 (PST)

> Maybe you should try to be a little constructive with your

  Ron Delgado's input on 01/19/96:
	Many good softwares are buggy, but I know I speak for many
  others when I say Pine a very good product. Maybe what would be
  more constructive in your comments is to give ideas on improving
  it.

 Ron Delgado
 Systems Administrator
 email: [email-masked]

---

From: John Hegeman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:28:46 -0500 (EST)

David:

	Congratulations on your moderate and civil reply to a most 
intemperate posting.

	From a lurker....

************************************************
*  John Hegeman                                *
*  Maiden's Bower Farm                         *
*  P.O. Box 246   Churchville, MD  21028  USA  *
*  (410) 836-2435   [email-masked] *
************************************************

---

From: [email-masked] (Andreas Klemm)
Date: 18 Jan 1996 13:57:59 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
	[email-masked] (Steve Harrington) writes:
>Steve Harrington [email-masked]

Steve, you are free to use another free mailer. 

After that you should take the time to think about, how you could 
improve your writing style, i.e.: to be more polite to people who
did nothing more than offering other people software for free.

You have not been forced to use pine. 

FLAME ON...
	And now shut up as I do, right ;-) 
		...FLAME OFF

--
[email-masked]         /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH
Andreas Klemm     ___/\/\/        - Support Unix -

---

From: [email-masked] (Jeff Mercer)
Date: 21 Jan 1996 02:56:36 GMT

On 17 Jan 1996 17:17:03 -0800, [email-masked] (Steve Harrington) wrote:
>I am a new and very dissatisfied user of your software.

I didn't have anything to do with it. Your posting to a newsgroup and
discussion list with thousands of people reading it. Only a handful of people
have *anything* to do with PINE.

In other words: Ask me if I care.

>The  last time I

Really? I found that the program is pretty consistant with its commands. And
the two-line help bar at the bottom is of course an easy reference for what
commands are available, and one can always hit Control-G to get more detailed
help.

>University of Washington, please know where I stand.

As I said, I could care less. You're trying to direct comments meant for a
handful of people to thousands. 

And you seem to be under the impression that the Pine group is some sort of
big corporate conglomerate. They're not. It's a bunch of geeks at UW that
happened to right a decent mail program and make it available for anyone
else who wants to use it... If you don't like it, that's fine. Delete it
and quit snivveling. It's not like it costs any money.

>For you to inflict

Let me guess, your just too computer illiterate and incompetant to understand
even the most simplistic of operations, and so your putting the blame for
your own basic stupidity on the people who wrote the program.

I've seen 12 year-old kids with no computer experience of any sort adapt to
using pine in less than 30 minutes. I can't imagine how basically mentally
challanged you must be to find the program so difficult to use...

Not to say that Pine doesn't have its critics, and that there aren't major
advocacy wars involving pine (for/against), but they all really boil down to
a matter of preference.

 [email-masked]   : Reality is a crutch for those who don't have a firm grip    
 Jeff The Riffer  : on fantasy.                                                 
    Drifter...    :                                                             
Homo Postmortemus :

---

From: [email-masked] (Dean Pentcheff)
Date: 22 Jan 1996 06:45:51 -0500

[email-masked] (David L Miller) writes:
[A very level-headed and tolerant set of responses to a growling
and whining protest letter.]

David, you are a model of discretion!  Don't think that, because we
don't write too often, there aren't oodles (we'll leave exact numbers
out here) of very happy users of Pine.  Pine has been a godsend for
many, many people, both systems administrators and users.

Of course, not everyone loves all aspects of Pine!  Many, many
compromises had to be made in its design, and I particlulary applaud
the developers for writing a document that describes the design
decisions in detail (rather than just stating a vague "design goal" and
leaving it at that).  The choices are hard, and not everyone will agree
with all the decisions that were made along the way, but the overall
set of features is well balanced.

Kudos to the Pine development team for a well-done, and necessary
product!

-Dean
-- 
N. Dean Pentcheff   <[email-masked]>   WWW: http://tbone.biol.sc.edu/~dean/
Biological Sciences, Univ. of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 (803-777-3936)
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