Subject: Need a newsreader easier than PINE!!!???!!

From: [email-masked] (Paul E. Jones)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 22:46:49 GMT

Hi Everyone,

Today, I received a request to provide the computer users at our
facility with a *very* simple "news" program.  This "news" program
will provide information such as the lunch menu in the cafeteria,
training classes scheduled, notices about software changes, etc.

We're running on a UNIX platform, and my initial thought was to allow
the users to use PINE.  From what *I* can see, PINE is very simple to
use, and we could set up (additional) local newsgroups for the new
information that needs to be posted.

Some information, like the dinner menu, should expire quickly.  Other
postings, such as software changes should linger around for a while.
Again, this looks like a perfect task for newsgroups.

I was told, however, that PINE is too hard for some computer users.
Some of the users will be people with absolutely no computer
experience.  I really think that the newsgroup mechanism would work
wonderfully, but I need to find a "simpler" interface.

I thought many folks here have probably evaluated several news readers
and might be able to answer:

	Are there any *very* simply news readers out there for UNIX?

Thanks!
Paul
//
// Paul E. Jones
// WWW Home Page: http://metro.turnpike.net/P/paulej
// PGP public key available by e-mail or my WWW page
// "These are my opinions.  They might not be much, but they're all mine!"
//

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From: [email-masked] (Simeon Nevel)
Date: 27 Jul 1995 23:20:26 GMT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Paul E. Jones ([email-masked]) wrote:
: 
: I was told, however, that PINE is too hard for some computer users.
: Some of the users will be people with absolutely no computer
: experience.  I really think that the newsgroup mechanism would work
: wonderfully, but I need to find a "simpler" interface.

I use the tin newsreader, I learned it just by sitting down and going to 
it...Simeon
- -- 
[email-masked] *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* A rabbit is just an angel with big ears *-*
PGP Key-id x'C9EFCB75' Print: F52E9C76B162CCB262A39F8A87B040C0 >SIG-ONLY<
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Finger me at <[email-masked]> for PGP key(s)

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From: "Steven D. Majewski" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 20:38:08 -0400 (EDT)

> 	Are there any *very* simply news readers out there for UNIX?

Pine is by far the simplest of the half dozen or so unix news readers
I've tried. Others have more features, but are definitely harder for
new users to use. ( There are some very easy GUI oriented Mac newsreaders, 
and maybe the same for MS-Windows, but most of them don't seem to handle
high volume as well as  telnet-ing to a unix host. ) 

> Again, this looks like a perfect task for newsgroups.

But maybe you should reconsider the idea of using newsgroups for 
this info - maybe a gopher or web server would be a better way. 
They might require more maintenance for the staff, but would, I
think, be easier for the users to navigate, and there are several 
clients for unix, mac and ms-dos/windows to choose from. You can
even construct some interactive services, and you can gateway 
just about anything. ( TIME magazine may be trying to sell you
on the idea of interactive shopping on the WorldWideWeb, but really
and practically, most folks NOW are using it as a electronic bulletin
board, whether for internal use or for their customers or both. )

---|  Steven D. Majewski   (804-982-0831)  <[email-masked]>  |---
---|  Computer Systems Engineer          University of Virginia  |---
---|  Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics  |---
---|  Box 449 Health Science Center    Charlottesville,VA 22908  |---
 [ "The grass is always greener, except at t=0" - Stan Kelly-Bootle ]

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From: [email-masked] (John E. Davis)
Date: 28 Jul 1995 02:46:47 GMT

On Thu, 27 Jul 1995 19:59:31 -0400, Michael Pollak  <[email-masked]> wrote:
 : On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Paul E. Jones wrote:
 : 
 : > I was told, however, that PINE is too hard for some computer users.
 : > Some of the users will be people with absolutely no computer
 : > experience.  I really think that the newsgroup mechanism would work
 : > wonderfully, but I need to find a "simpler" interface.
 : > 
 : I think PINE is the easiest newsreader for UNIX by far, once someone 
 : (like you) has set up the config file (which isn't hard for someone like 
 : you.)

I have never used pine but someone told me that `slrn' is easier to use than
pine is.  Quite a few people have told me that they think it has the best
user interface of any unix newsreader (tin, trn, nn, ...).  Of course it is
much more powerful than pine.  It is available from space.mit.edu in
pub/davis/slrn.  Here is a list of features:

  * True referenced-based threading
  * Draws a colored thread tree using line drawing characters
  * Multiple server support
  * Multiple windows
     - Header summary window showing threads
     - Article window
  * Customizable 
     - Keybindings
     - Colors
         For example, the default colors, say, using a color xterm such as
	 rxvt, shows the top status bar in blue on white, the author's name
	 in the header summary window as magenta on white, the thread tree
	 as red lines connecting subject titles, the window status lines
	 appear as yellow on blue, the article headers in the article window
	 are cyan on white, the quoted text appears as red on white, and
	 the body of the article appears as blue on white.
     - Server -> newsrc mappings
  * Smart screen updating
  * Online help which is also customizable
  * Automatic reconnect if server drops connection
  * Fast on slow modem connections.  It does not read the whole active file
     like many other newsreaders.
  * Compile with TERM support under Linux

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From: [email-masked] (John E. Davis)
Date: 28 Jul 1995 02:50:44 GMT

On 28 Jul 1995 02:46:47 GMT, John E. Davis <[email-masked]> wrote:
 : I have never used pine but someone told me that `slrn' is easier to use than
 : pine is.  Quite a few people have told me that they think it has the best
 
  I forgot to mention that slrn only supports reading via NNTP.  It does not
  support reading from a spool directory, yet.
  
  --John

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From: Michael Pollak <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 19:59:31 -0400

> wonderfully, but I need to find a "simpler" interface.
I think PINE is the easiest newsreader for UNIX by far, once someone 
(like you) has set up the config file (which isn't hard for someone like 
you.)

__________________________________________________________________________
Michael Pollak................New York [email-masked]

"When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my Grandfather, and
not screaming, like the passengers in his car."
__________________________________________________________________________

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From: Mike Brudenell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:21:36 +0100 (BST)

I have always found tin and rn very unintuitive to use.  In particular 
the way that articles "disappear" as soon as you have looked at them.  In 
fact the newsreader has simply hidden them because you have looked at 
them.  I much prefer Pine's paradigm of getting you to actually Delete 
them to hide them.

I still find Tin tricky the odd time I use it.  Sometimes "q" seems to 
take me out a menu level, and sometimes it dumps me out of the program 
(when I was expecting to go up a level instead).

We're finding here that whilst our Technocrats seem to have a preference 
for Tin (and slagging of Pine), many new users are finding Pine just 
great for newsreading.  I'm fairly sure that we have people now using 
Usenet News because of Pine, but wouldn't be if they'd had the hurdle of 
Yet Another Program to learn.

If Pine's interface really is a problem (and I don't see why it should be 
if they're familiar with using it for e-mail) then you may have to be 
looking at an alternative technology.

For example, we use World-Wide Web browsers with some home written CGI 
scripts to provide a nice friendly browsing/inserting mechanism for Small 
Ads and Login News/Notices.  However this works better for "one way" 
announcements, rather than the two-way chains of discussions News is so 
much better at.  It's a thought...

Mike Brudenell                                         <[email-masked]>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York, YO1 5DD, UK
Tel: +44-1904-433811  FAX: +44-1904-433740  http://www.york.ac.uk/~pmb1/

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From: [email-masked] (R. Stewart Ellis)
Date: 28 Jul 95 11:36:29 GMT

>	Are there any *very* simply news readers out there for UNIX?

I don't think news is even the best approach.  Gopher explicitly presents
everything in menus.  It is possible to setup scripts that use the gopher
client to open a particular part of the server.  I have written simple
scripts name "help" and "policy" that do this kind of thing.

-- 
  R.Stewart(Stew) Ellis, Assoc.Prof., (Off)810-762-9765   ___________________
  Humanities & Social Science,  GMI Eng.& Mgmt. Inst.    /   _____  ______ 
  Flint, MI 48504      [email-masked]               /        / /  /  / /
  Web admin:  chimera,nn,tin,jove,kermit - free's best!/________/ /  /  / /

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From: Nancy McGough <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Jul 1995 17:30:50 GMT

I'd say that either Pine or Lynx (with the `news:' URL) are the
easiest.  How about if you create a Web page with a list of
the newsgroups linked using the `news:' URL and then give people
a choice of using either Pine of Lynx to participate in the 
newsgroups?

Nancy
--
Nancy McGough                 Primary Web: http://www.jazzie.com/ii/
Infinite Ink                   Mirror Web: http://www.best.com/~ii/

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From: Tom Christiansen <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Jul 1995 00:02:29 GMT

In news.software.readers, 
    Michael Pollak <[email-masked]> writes:
:
:On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Paul E. Jones wrote:
:
:> I was told, however, that PINE is too hard for some computer users.
:> Some of the users will be people with absolutely no computer
:> experience.  I really think that the newsgroup mechanism would work
:> wonderfully, but I need to find a "simpler" interface.
:> 
:I think PINE is the easiest newsreader for UNIX by far, once someone 
:(like you) has set up the config file (which isn't hard for someone like 
:you.)

Actually, trn is the easiest: you never hit but space, and an 8-command
cheat sheet is more than adequate.  Nonetheless, you still have to give
them a start-up file.  Most of the problems with sophisticated packages
like trn, X windows, vi, emacs, and a host of similar things is that
without super simple config files, computer users without a programming
background will be lost.  The right 30 minute tutorial by the appropriate
guru sitting down and making your world better as YOU defined better will
make all the difference.

--tom
-- 
Tom Christiansen      Perl Consultant, Gamer, Hiker      [email-masked]

    In general, they do what you want, unless you want consistency.
            --Larry Wall in the perl man page

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From: [email-masked] (Bruce Welch)
Date: 29 Jul 1995 00:58:13 -0600

In article <[email-masked]>,
Tom Christiansen  <[email-masked]> wrote:

>cheat sheet is more than adequate. 

I talked our "guru" into reconfiguring trn to use "pico -t" as the 
default editor for trn.  Made using trn a breeze for people coming from 
pine.  And, in turn, made my support job one heck of a lot easier.  But I 
have asked him to set up an evaluation copy of slrn - gotta see if there 
can be anything easier than trn. :)  

-- 
 this signature being renovated ... excuse the mess

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From: [email-masked] (Jonathan and DearOldDad)
Date: 30 Jul 1995 05:17:35 GMT

Mike Brudenell ([email-masked]) wrote:
: I have always found tin and rn very unintuitive to use.  In particular 
: the way that articles "disappear" as soon as you have looked at them.  In 
: fact the newsreader has simply hidden them because you have looked at 
: them.

That's because you have it set up wrong.  From TIN type M (shift+m) then 
change item 11 (show only unread) to 'off'  ... or alternatively, if you 
want to leave it on as the default, at anytime type r to toggle the 
read-unread back to off.

: I still find Tin tricky the odd time I use it.  Sometimes "q" seems to 
: take me out a menu level, and sometimes it dumps me out of the program 
: (when I was expecting to go up a level instead).

q takes you out a menu level, as does left arrow ... Q exits the program.

: We're finding here that whilst our Technocrats seem to have a preference 
: for Tin (and slagging of Pine), many new users are finding Pine just 
: great for newsreading.  I'm fairly sure that we have people now using 
: Usenet News because of Pine, but wouldn't be if they'd had the hurdle of 
: Yet Another Program to learn.

... and then some other stuff ... deleted ...

: On 27 Jul 1995, Simeon Nevel wrote:
: > Paul E. Jones ([email-masked]) wrote:
: > : I was told, however, that PINE is too hard for some computer users.
: > : Some of the users will be people with absolutely no computer
: > : experience.  I really think that the newsgroup mechanism would work
: > : wonderfully, but I need to find a "simpler" interface.
: > I use the tin newsreader, I learned it just by sitting down and going to 
: > it...Simeon

IMHO, TIN is easier for a beginner, or a non-unix savy user, but the TIN 
defaults of deleteing stuff you have read (acually it doesn't delete, it 
just doesn't show it) etc are not good, but any TIN user should go thru 
the M menu and reset the defaults to your preference for sorting 
threading etc etc etc, ... TIN can also do thing PINE can't like make 
.kill files etc. ... Don't forget that also in TIN you can press h for 
help at anytime and get a much more detailed list of available options 
than you see at the bottom of the screen ...  Only my 895 cents worth ... 
G'Day. ... Hope this helps ...
                             /\    /~~\/\  /\    /\      /\  /\   |>>
John (aka DearOldDad)     /\/\ \/\/   /  \/  \/\/  \/\/\/  \/  \/\|
Pocono Mtns PA USA EARTH /_/__\/_/___/_/\/___/[email-masked]|__

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From: bruce@athena ()
Date: 30 Jul 1995 08:49:05 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, Bruce Welch wrote:

:  But I 
:have asked him to set up an evaluation copy of slrn - gotta see if there 
:can be anything easier than trn. :)  

Hoo boy.  This post is with slrn set up to use pico -t as the editor.  
Been fiddling with a test group for what seems forever.  This should 
work.  It may even identify me as me.  slrn feels a bit awkward after 
trn, but it is faaaaast.  Not having to grab all of the threading info 
until asked probably lessens the load on the server.  While I was at it, 
I set up 2 aliases - one for work in good old black and white, and one 
for home in living 16 colour.  Hmmm.  It also posts faster than trn.  But 
changing the editor from vi to pico is what kept me from just tossing 
it.  And learning the new key combinations will be great for avoiding 
repetitive motion syndrome :)  Now, all I need to know is why the -create 
flag didn't work properly ... I'm sure there is more than one whole 
newsgroup on that server ...