Subject: Syncing UNIX/POP mail

From: [email-masked] (Cal Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 11:15:34 -0800

This posting updates some of the things I asked in comp.mail.misc
regarding syncing mail reads across UNIX and POP.  I tried this out again
last night and reads actually DO sync but deletes definitely don't.  I see
this as being a much more crucial issue.  Right now, I have to go and
manually delete/expunge messages in Pine that I have 'deleted' in Eudora. 
Am I missing the point here or what re local/remote mail reading?  Can
anyone out there describe how/whether they can sync deletes across these
packages?  Is there a POP mail reader that can update the mail from my
home directory on the server?

Thanks again...
> 
> ------------------------------***
> Calvin Sawyer
> Studio Assistant, Electronic Communication Design
> Emily Carr Institute of Art and Design
> 1399 Johnston Street
> Vancouver, B.C.  V6H 3R9
> Canada
> -----------------------------***

---

From: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 13:36:13 -0700

> home directory on the server?

With POP, you are usually downloading mail from the server to the client
and often then deleting mail from the server (depending upon whether or
not you set the "keep mail on server" option).

The point is that when you "delete" a message in Eudora, you are deleting
the local copy, not the copy on the server.

Basically, what you apparently want to use is IMAP, not POP.  IMAP
supports the "manage mail on the server" model that POP does not.
Unfortunately, Eudora doesn't support IMAP yet.  Consider PC-Pine or
Simeon for Windows, or MailDrop for the Mac, as an alternative to Eudora.

-- Mark --

DoD #0105, R90/6 pilot, FAX: (206) 685-4045  ICBM: N 47 39'35" W 122 18'39"
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.

---

From: [email-masked] (Lex Spoon)
Date: 20 Jun 1995 21:17:34 GMT

Mark Crispin ([email-masked]) wrote:
: On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Cal Sawyer wrote:
: > This posting updates some of the things I asked in comp.mail.misc
: > regarding syncing mail reads across UNIX and POP.  I tried this out again
: > last night and reads actually DO sync but deletes definitely don't.  I see
: > this as being a much more crucial issue.  Right now, I have to go and
: > manually delete/expunge messages in Pine that I have 'deleted' in Eudora.
: > Am I missing the point here or what re local/remote mail reading?  Can
: > anyone out there describe how/whether they can sync deletes across these
: > packages?  Is there a POP mail reader that can update the mail from my
: > home directory on the server?

: With POP, you are usually downloading mail from the server to the client
: and often then deleting mail from the server (depending upon whether or
: not you set the "keep mail on server" option).

: The point is that when you "delete" a message in Eudora, you are deleting
: the local copy, not the copy on the server.

: Basically, what you apparently want to use is IMAP, not POP.  IMAP
: supports the "manage mail on the server" model that POP does not.
: Unfortunately, Eudora doesn't support IMAP yet.  Consider PC-Pine or
: Simeon for Windows, or MailDrop for the Mac, as an alternative to Eudora.

: -- Mark --

Bah.  I won't argue that IMAP doesn't have a richer function set than
POP, nor even that IMAP doesn't have a different underlying philosophy 
than POP, but the POP protocol _does_ support keeping a local mailbox
synchronized with a mailbox on the server.  (ie the TOP and/or
UIDL commands)  

Different clients, however, take advantage of this support to 
different degrees....

Lex

---

From: Chris Newman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:57:32 -0400

> home directory on the server?

The POP3 protocol has no provision for syncing deletes -- it just
transfers mail from the server to the client.  IMAP4 can sync deletes
between different clients -- even if they're simultaneously connected
to the same mailstore.  Check out:
	http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/cyrus/email/standards-IMAP.html
for more info about IMAP.
-----
Chris Newman <[email-masked]>, http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~cn0h/
Protest the Communications Decency Act with George Carlin's 7 dirty
words in your sig: Shit, Piss, Fuck, Cunt, Cocksucker, Motherfucker, Tits

---

From: [email-masked] (Lex Spoon)
Date: 22 Jun 1995 05:05:30 GMT

Urs Eppenberger ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Lex Spoon ([email-masked]) wrote:
: : ... but the POP protocol _does_ support keeping a local mailbox
: : synchronized with a mailbox on the server.  (ie the TOP and/or
: : UIDL commands)  
: : Different clients, however, take advantage of this support to 
: : different degrees....
: Lex, could you enlighten us about which clients do what and about which
: servers support TOP/UIDL?

I'm not familiar with all that many clients and servers, but here's what
I know.

Most servers support the TOP command -- it's been in the protocol
as an optional command since (I believe) the first RFC on POP3.  
Servers that I _know_ to support it are OSF/1, 4.3BSD, and 
whatever the Linux Slackware distribution comes with.  

I don't think UIDL is very common; I did see it in the source code
for one pop server, but sorry I don't remember which one.  

As far as clients, I'm even less sure.  I think Eudora uses
TOP and looks at the non-standard (but common on UNIX) "Status:"
field.  Any mailer which has a "do not delete mail on server"
must be using either UIDL or TOP (unless of course the
programmer is clever than me! :) )

In particular, I don't know of any clients (again, my experience is
limited though!) that support the "sync deletes" idea that started
this thread.  I would think it wouldn't be too hard to implement, though,
as long as the server at least supports TOP.  Has anyone else seen
such a client?

Lex

---

From: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 23:10:29 -0700

On 20 Jun 1995, Lex Spoon wrote:
> the POP protocol _does_ support keeping a local mailbox

UIDL is new.  Most POP client and server implementations do not support
it.  I wrote one of the few POP servers that has it.

It is really stretching it to claim that TOP supports keeping a local
mailbox synchronized with a mailbox on the server.  All TOP does is
display the first n lines of the mailbox.

-- Mark --

---

From: [email-masked] (Urs Eppenberger)
Date: 21 Jun 1995 06:12:49 GMT

Lex Spoon ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Bah.  I won't argue that IMAP doesn't have a richer function set than
: POP, nor even that IMAP doesn't have a different underlying philosophy 
: than POP, but the POP protocol _does_ support keeping a local mailbox
: synchronized with a mailbox on the server.  (ie the TOP and/or
: UIDL commands)  
: Different clients, however, take advantage of this support to 
: different degrees....
Lex, could you enlighten us about which clients do what and about which
servers support TOP/UIDL?

Urs.

---

From: "Vladimir Solnicky (Vladimír Solnický)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:28:33 +0200 (METDST)

> for one pop server, but sorry I don't remember which one.  

  At least the newest version of David Harris' Mercury for Novell Netware 
servers imlpements it.

V. S.

----------------
+OK barbora.mff.cuni.cz, Mercury POP3 Server v1.21 ready.
help
+OK
Mercury MTS Post Office Protocol v3 server v1.21,
Copyright (c) 1993-95 David Harris.
This server recognizes the following commands:
  USER - login as a user
  PASS - specify a password
  STAT - show mailbox statistics
  RETR - send a message
  LIST - show message numbers and sizes
  DELE - delete a message
  RSET - 'undo' all mailbox changes
  TOP  - show lines from a message
  QUIT - close the connection
  NOOP, RPOP, LAST are also supported.

Extended commands:
  XTND XMIT  - Send a message via POP3
  XTND XLST  - Eudora extended list command
  UIDL - return unique identifier (RFC1725).
.
quit
+OK barbora.mff.cuni.cz Server closing down.
-----------------------------

|  |  Bc. Vladimir Solnicky (Vladimír Solnický using ISO 8859-1 or 2)
|  |  Institute of Information             UTIA AV CR
 \/   Theory and Automation                Pod vodarenskou vezi 4
Department of Computing Systems            182 08 Praha 8-Liben
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Zakladni stranka: http://www.utia.cas.cz/user_data/vs/vs-home-ce.html

---

From: [email-masked] (Vadim Zaliva)
Date: 27 Jun 1995 09:58:50 GMT

>>>>> "Lex" == Lex Spoon <[email-masked]> writes:

    Lex> I don't think UIDL is very common; I did see it in the source
    Lex> code for one pop server, but sorry I don't remember which
    Lex> one.

In qualcomm's qpopper.
It's very good POP server and I can recomend you to take a look
at it. ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com or http://www.qualcomm.com.

BTW UIDL command is very good for synchronization.
--
;;--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
;; Vadim Zaliva                         +   Those who do not understand Unix  +
;; Fido    : 2:463/[email-masked]       +   are condemned to reinvent it,     +
;; Home    : [email-masked]    +   poorly.                           +
;; Office  : [email-masked]         +                   (H. Spencer)      +
;;--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

---

From: John Gardiner Myers <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 16:26:11 -0400

> for one pop server, but sorry I don't remember which one.  

Six of the seven POP3 servers mentioned in replies to my earlier query
on comp.mail.mime support UIDL.  They are:

Cyrus pop3d 1.3
IMAP toolkit 4.0 ipop3d
[email-masked]
SPOTmail POP3 Server WinNT
Mercury MTS v1.21
Qualcomm popper 2.1.4-r4

-- 
_.John G. Myers		Internet: [email-masked]
			LoseNet:  ...!seismo!ihnp4!wiscvm.wisc.edu!give!up

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael J Matthews)
Date: 30 Jun 1995 01:22:39 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>words in your sig: Shit, Piss, Fuck, Cunt, Cocksucker, Motherfucker, Tits

POP3 most definitely can delete mail on a UNIX server mail spool. It can't
keep various client mail databases in sync, how could it? That will be
implemented different for each client.

I wrote my on UNIX POP3 client software using a dos shareware starting point.
I receive my mail, then I delete my mail. What's the problem?
If I had a UNIX account on the server the mail would not be there after
it was downloaded.
If I chose to receive it and not delete it POP3 can support that too.

-- 
Michael J Matthews
[email-masked]