Subject: Re: Q: Why use pine (looking for justification) (fwd)

From: Barry Landy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 10:55:54 +0100 (BST)

On Fri, 29 Apr 1994, Darryl Friesen (4758) wrote:

> The short version is that imap is good, and Pine is good, and if you
> can't use Pine, use another imap client.  Here's their recomendations
> on a platform basis:
> 
> 	Macintosh:		Mailstrom
> 	DOS:			PC-Pine
> 	Windows:		ECS-Mail
> 	Unix chatacter cell:	Pine
> 	VMS character cell:	None (although this was before 
> 				PMDF came with VMS Pine)

But it should be noted that:-
a) Mailstrom is a TOTAL disaster - it does *not* obey proper IMAP 
comventions, and is maintained part-time by someone whose actual job does 
NOT include Mailstrom.
As a result, despite the user interface being very nice, we have been 
forced to discontinue recommending Mailstrom to our MAC users.
We have no second best at present, though we do have POP customers using 
Eudora (also not 100% satisfactory).
I believe that ECS-mail either has or will have a MAC client.

b) ECS-mail is expensive, and PINE and Mailstrom are free.

=======================================================================
Barry Landy, Head of Systems and Development,
University of Cambridge Computing Service
[email-masked]      0223-334713   +44-223-334713

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From: "Darryl Friesen (4758)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 09:34:29 -0600 (CST)

> comventions, and is maintained part-time by someone whose actual job does 

Our Mac person here has been experimenting with beta copies, which
seem to work OK (I don't know much about it).

> b) ECS-mail is expensive, and PINE and Mailstrom are free.

I was told the Windows version was only $24 (CND), which I thought
to be quite reasonable.  It's not as good as free (and I do like
Pine better), but for people who want a native Windows mail
reader, it's a goo, inexpensive product. (My opinion).

- Darryl

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Darryl Friesen, Client Services              [email-masked]
   Department of Computing Services          University of Saskatchewan
     <A HREF="http://www.usask.ca/~friesend/">My AMAZING Web Page</A>
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "I am not the only person who uses his computer mainly for the
   purpose of diddling with his computer."
                                               - Dave Barry

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 08:45:40 -0700 (PDT)

> comventions, and is maintained part-time by someone whose actual job does 

There is a recent addition to the set of available Mac IMAP clients.  It's
called "Mail Drop".  From the file /mail/imap.software on
ftp.cac.washington.edu here is the contact info: 

 Baylor University: (Mail Drop)
     FTP: ackmo.baylor.edu: /pub/bell/Mail_Drop
     [email-masked]

It is very simple, but from the few tests I performed seemed to be stable.
MIME support is not there yet, but promised.

-teg

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From: Dan Mandell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 21:14:32 -0500 (EST)

Regarding imap Mac mail clients ... is there a general consensus about the
accuracy of Barry's Lany's comments about Mailstrom.  

This is the first I had heard of problems with its imap implementation. 
Although this is a pine list (and the Pine team does a fantastic job of
providing information such as Terry Gray's recent mention of an addition
to the Mac imap agents) I'd like a little more background on Mailstrom
problems.  I'd be especially interested in hearing from campuses who have 
used Mailstrom.

Dan

--
=====================================
Dan Mandell, Computer Services, Saint Mary's College      
Internet: [email-masked]

"Others promise you the World. We deliver!":  New York Times

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From: Barry Landy <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 16:31:52 BST

> seem to work OK (I don't know much about it).

I dont think this is the place to flame Mailstrom. We struggled for 9 
months to provide a proper service, and as the result of a number of 
different problems, and after a lot of work, we decided we could not spare 
any further effort to a lost cause - and yes, we did try (several) beta 
versions. The killer for us is the unofficial nature of the product, so 
that (unlike Pine) there is no guaranteed support.

> I was told the Windows version was only $24 (CND), which I thought

yes, about $20 per seat. A lot of seats = a lot of money. A site licence 
was quoted at abut 20,000. For UK readers, I understand that CHEST are 
licensing it.

> reader, it's a goo, inexpensive product. (My opinion).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 223 334600
Head of Systems and Development    Direct line:        +44 223 334713
University of Cambridge Computing Service
New Museums Site                   Email:[email-masked]
Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

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From: David L Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 13:10:37 -0700 (PDT)

> that (unlike Pine) there is no guaranteed support.

Oh yeah?  Since when do we *guarantee* support for Pine? ;)

Our support might be better than what some commercial companies do, but keep
in mind that we are funded only to support the UW community and anything else
is just "making Pine better for UW users."  Outside support could dry up 
overnight if someone decides it is a waste of taxpayers' money....

Now, with that bit of a reality-check done, next suggestion?

--DLM

|\ |  |\/|  David L. Miller    [email-masked]  (206) 685-6240
|/ |_ |  |  Software Engineer, Pine Development Team   (206) 685-4045 (FAX)
University of Washington, Networks & Distributed Computing, JE-20
4545 15th Ave NE, Seattle WA 98105, USA

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From: Barry Landy <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 07:47:56 +0100 (BST)

> Oh yeah?  Since when do we *guarantee* support for Pine? ;)
Perhaps I should rephrase that!
Mailstrom has *no* staff permanently assigned to its maintenance, which 
compares unfavourably to PINE, which at least for the time being has a 
team in place which has the mission of maintaining and developing PINE 
for the benefit of the U of W, and we can all reasonably expect to 
benefit by riding on the coat-tails of the U of W.

Better?

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From: Alan Ward <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:04:11 +0100 (BST)

I am sure that the Pine team (and therefore U of W) benefit from the
larger sample of user feedback (and therefore make a better Pine) but
at some cost. I am sure that the knowledgeable users around the world 
feed in ideas and even code. And, as we all know, doing good is its own
reward (the U of W is, of course, world famous as a result of Pine :-) ).

                     """""     Wot - U of W - yeah
                     o   o
            ----oOo----O----oOo----
             |     |     |     |   
            -----------------------
                |     |     |     |
But perhaps, before Pine gets dragged down by the coat tails we should all
ask (and the Pine team should think about) how does the wider user
community support in-house projects made more generally available, and
support Pine in particular. There's a lot of good will but I don't have any
good ideas, and perhaps it has to come from the Pine team since they are
the only ones who know the costs/benefits and pressures. 

					Alan Ward
Department of Microbiology
University of Newcastle upon Tyne

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From: David L Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 14:36:13 -0700 (PDT)

> reward (the U of W is, of course, world famous as a result of Pine :-) ).

Yes, that is exactly why we make Pine widely available and provide the 
level of support we do.  

>                      """""     Wot - U of W - yeah

I don't have any clear ideas on this either, but I can certainly feel the
ever increasing weight.  Anyone who has been subscribed to pine-info for a
while can see the support load there, but the Pine Team handles even more
traffic directed to pine-bugs (2-3x higher than pine-info).  The total
traffic averages over 1050 messages/month (including requests, replies, and
some internal traffic).  This could get pushed significantly higher with the
addition of comp.mail.pine... 

Suggestions for reducing the support load would be greatly appreciated!