Subject: Reading News Question

From: Sherry Lake <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:23:54 -0500 (EST)

Can you read news from pine?  If not, are there any plans to do this?

Thanks.
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Sherry H. Lake			[email-masked]
Electronic Mail Consultant
George Mason University

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From: David L Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 10:41:34 -0800 (PST)

Sherry,

Yes, in Pine 3.89 you can *read* news, assuming you already have a .pinerc
file created by another newsreader.  Just set the news-collections
variable in your .pinerc file to point to your NNTP server(s).  The next 
release of Pine will include support for subscription, unsubscription, 
posting, etc.

Thanks for the request!

--DLM

|\ |  |\/|  David L. Miller    [email-masked]  (206) 685-6240
|/ |_ |  |  Software Engineer, Pine Development Team   (206) 685-4045 (FAX)
University of Washington, Networks & Distributed Computing
4545 15th Ave NE, Seattle WA 98105, USA

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From: Martin Beenham <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:16:37 +0000 (WET)

> release of Pine will include support for subscription, unsubscription, 

And threading???...Please :)

Regards,
-- 
Martin G. Beenham "IT - what's that?" (martin@compass)|Tel +44 635 550660
Compass Computer Group, Newbury, Berks, UK RG14 5PX   |Fax +44 635 521268
Internet: [email-masked] (@work)
          [email-masked]   (@home)

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From: ILAN GRAIFER <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 08:29:24 -0500 (EST)

> And threading???...Please :)

I don't think pine should become a full news-reader. There are many
readers that are both powerful and easy to use and which are easily
obtainable on the net.
I would prefer to see pine as a mail agent only, which does what
it is supposed to do and doesn't try to be an all in one package.

I would like to suggest adding an option of making an uuencoded attachment
in addition to the MIME attachments. Many people don't have MIME, and it
will be nice if it was possible to send a uuencoded file to those people 
from within pine. An automatic decoding would be nice as well :)

Ilan

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       	        _==|   	                   Ilan Graifer
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From: Martin Beenham <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:14:15 +0000 (WET)

> it is supposed to do and doesn't try to be an all in one package.

There is a high degree of common functionality and purpose between news
and mail. I for one strongly prefer them to be combined. As a busy
administrator of many systems two into one goes down a treat in reducing
the number of packages to maintain. Also, I don't wish to hop about
between packages when replying to news articles via mail, forwarding etc. 

I use and prefer a common news and mail utility on my PC at home. I think 
you are underestimating the PINE team in implying that they wouldn't make 
as good a job of it as existing news offerings on the net. I'm sure 
they'd do even better! In any case, if you don't want to use PINE's 
in-built news facilities you don't have to. There seems little reason not 
to continue the logical path on which PINE has embarked.
 
> from within pine. An automatic decoding would be nice as well :)

That gets my vote. Even though it's easy to do by shelling out it's a 
common enough operation to warrent a built-in facility IMHO.

Regards,

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From: ILAN GRAIFER <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 10:58:41 -0500 (EST)

> between packages when replying to news articles via mail, forwarding etc. 

Although having a combined mail client and a newsreader might reduce the
initial installation time of the packages, it will defiantly increase the
complexity of the whole package, making it harder to use.

If you take a look, at any of the newsreaders that are available for UNIX,
you will see that there are many different options, and incorporating them
into pine will create a package that will be extremely hard to use for
novice users. 
I think the best part about pine is it's ease of use, and simplicity, thus
adding so many features will increase the number of options and reduce the
usefulness of the whole package.

> to continue the logical path on which PINE has embarked.

I had no intention to imply that the PINE team can't create a newsreader
that will be as good or even better than other newsreaders that are
available, but I just don't feel it is necessary to reinvent the wheel all
over again.

On a UNIX platform there are many good newsreaders, including readers for
the X window system, such as rn, trn, xrn and several others.

If the system in question is DOS based, then I am not sure if there exist
any good newsreaders. In this case a combined news/mail client can be
a good idea, but I feel that the news should be implemented only in PC-PINE,
and preferably as a second package that will interact closely with pine.

Ilan

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From: David L Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 10:05:49 -0800 (PST)

> usefulness of the whole package.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the Pine news support.  For
the novice user, the transition from a mail folder to a newsgroup will be
barely noticable. One of the biggest reasons for putting news support into
pine is to give the novice user something that is not as daunting as the
conventional Unix newsreader.  Pine will probably never be as
sophisticated as the big news packages, but they do not meet the usability
needs of our primary target audience!

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From: Martin Beenham <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:05:15 +0000 (WET)

> complexity of the whole package, making it harder to use.

I entirely disagree that enhancing the existing news funcionality of PINE
by implementing threading would either increase the complexity or make it
harder to use. 

For those who do not wish to utilise the news functionality it need not be
enabled, as now. For those who do, the single package for dealing with
both news and mail would make usage easier not more difficult. There
would not be the requirement to learn a whole set of different commands
for a separate package (eg trn). 

I would think that implementing threading which extended to mail as well
as news would be enthusiastically received by all who have actually used a
threaded mail reader (and would be a new delight to those who havn't).

> usefulness of the whole package.

We are talking here about a package that already has much of the
functionality of a news utility. I use PINE to look at news from time to
time, but the absence of threading make it hard work.(Even harder for a
novice). Threading of mail would make for a much easier system for novices
to get to grips with. I use a threaded mail/news system so speak from
experience. 
 
> available, but I just don't feel it is necessary to reinvent the wheel all

If you think about it, we're not reinventing the wheel. What we're 
actually doing is enabling the PINE's existing news functionality to be 
used more powerfully, especially by novice users.

> the X window system, such as rn, trn, xrn and several others.

I use and administrate all these readers from time to time and I think
that asking a novice to cope with the range of options available under eg.
trn is asking a lot. 

PINE has been developed so that it's very easy for new users to pick up
and use, yet has advanced functionality that those of us who know where to
look can utilise. Asking a novice user to use trn is on a par with asking
him to use vi as his mail editor (IMHO). 
 
> and preferably as a second package that will interact closely with pine.

In the DOS arena there are a number of news and mail utilities. Most that
I have encountered are good. 

>From home I use a dialup SLIP with winsock under windows to access
Internet with a combined news and mail utility which is threaded. It makes
the facilities available within most UNIX mail and news offerings I've
implemented and encountered appear crude and cumbersome. (And I'm a UNIX 
devotee who LOVES vi!).

When PC-PINE has a winsock implementation AND threads mail and news I'll
think carefully about changing my personal setup. 

I want my users to have a system that's simple in concept to understand
and not a kludge of disparate applications doing essentially the same job. 

Hence my request to extend the existing news functionality of PINE by 
threading. (That's all I asked), because I think the PINE team have got 
the balance between funtionality and ease of use right.

Regards,

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From: Martin Beenham <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:16:08 +0000 (WET)

> needs of our primary target audience! 

I await the pleasure with antici..............................pation. It's
refreshing to find somebody who actually knows the needs of their primary
target audience. Just thread your mail as well as news (optionally for
those who like difficult news reading?) and you'll be dead centre! 

As has been said, there are plenty of monolithic newsreaders (And good
they are too for those that can afford the time and think it worthwhile to
master them) so you're right not to make another one (IMHO). 
;-) 

Regards,

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From: John Stumbles <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 13:07:40 GMT

> > and mail. I for one strongly prefer them to be combined. ...
> >               ...................       Also, I don't wish to hop about

> usefulness of the whole package.

I agree with having Pine have SIMPLE newsreading capabilities, for the 
following reasons:

1: some sites (e.g. this one) do not have a newsreader, even rn, 
available so it's pine or nothing (and as Ilan acknowledges, for PCs this 
is pretty much true too)

2: as a recent novice user of rn I found it extremely hard to get the hang
of, and this had put me off making the effort to learn to use it for ages
- Pine makes it easy enough to start that the user can soon find out
whether it's for them or not - and if it is can get some appreciation of
the value of features like threading and know a bit of what to look for 
in a 'real' newsreader.

And I don't think it has to make Pine difficult to use - the present
newsreading (which only works for me on unix version 3.0something, not the
PC version for some reason :-( ) doesn't change the Pine user interface
one jot, and is so much easier than rn that if I could kill or follow a
thread I'd want for nothing else. 

(Actually I'd like to see killing and threading in pine for MAIL, but
that's another story...)

John Stumbles                                       [email-masked]
University of Reading                                              0734 318435
Whiteknights, Reading, RG6 2AF, UK
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

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From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 14:53:58 +0000 (GMT)

> available so it's pine or nothing (and as Ilan acknowledges, for PCs this 

Apart from nn,trn and xvnews of course [see me John!]

Mike

==============================================================================
Mike Roch, Computer Services Centre,                          Tel: 0734 318430
The University, Whiteknights, Reading, RG6 2AF                Fax: 0734 753094

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From: Martin Beenham <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 14:36:59 +0000 (WET)

> (Actually I'd like to see killing and threading in pine for MAIL, but

Well John, I think it's all part of the same story - and very central to
the plot ;-)

That's the argument I'm trying to make, anyway...

One of many good reasons for having threaded mail (as well as news):

The use of threading in mail means that excessive quoting of preceding 
articles in a thread is rendered unnecessary. This should reduce the 
load on the Internet, make mail easier to read and reduce space taken on 
disk by stored messages.

I'm not too sure about killing mail. I use kill files to kill the body of
large news articles eg. those in bin group, so I can fetch later if the
header looks interesting. 

(Also to avoid articles written by known abusives, drivel generators or
those with signatures that take up half a page: please excuse my
rantings). 

In the case of mail, killing is a fairly final action! Better not IMHO
because you can't fetch a killed mail article later if you change your
mind or set the template such that it's killed accidentally (very likely 
with novice users).
 
I'm certainly a member of the KISS camp, and agree with the sentiments of 
the rest of your article. I'm not denegrating trn, I use it daily and 
it's good and fast. But inflicting it on novices?

BTW 
PINE team: Two in favour of threading mail so far 8*)
Any more out there?

Regards,

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 09:48:56 -0800 (PST)

> PINE team: Two in favour of threading mail so far 8*)

Martin,
No need to start a signature campaign... threading has been part of the 
plan since we first started thinking about news support (a long time ago)!

However, threading may not make it into the upcoming release, and the
first iteration may be "poor man's" threading based on a Subject sort...
but whatever is there will certainly apply to both news and mail. 

We have *not* thought about adding kill files, though I confess I've seen a 
few messages that tempt me mightily :)

For the record: the next Pine release will include news posting and
subscription/unsubscription, plus a bunch of other stuff like mailcap
support.  Threading, etc, is in the works, but I don't know exactly when
it will be ready. 

-teg

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From: "Thomas E. Rutledge, III" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 13:29:23 -0500 (EST)

When I read news via the Pine interface, the items I have finished with 
and or deleted continue to show up in my list, even days later and many 
log ons later...  Currently, I go into my .newsrc and change the last 
item read reference so they stop showing up in Pine.

Any suggestions on how to delete news items from Pine?

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:56:36 -0800 (PST)

Thomas,
Given a .pinerc entry something like this:
 news-collections=News *{news.u.washington.edu/nntp}[*]
and a .newsrc in my home directory on the same machine where Pine is 
running, you should find that any news article marked as Deleted
causes your .newsrc to be updated (in the same manner that other 
newsreaders would "mark as read").

Unfortunately, the current version of Pine does not know how to eXclude 
those messages from the Index view (stay tuned for the next release),
but the "D" status should be remembered across sessions by virtue of the
.newsrc info.

If that is not happening, we'll need more info to help...

-teg

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From: "Thomas E. Rutledge, III" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 22:48:04 -0500 (EST)

> but the "D" status should be remembered across sessions by virtue of the
 
Good News!  When I checked this, that is exactly what is happening -- my
.newsrc IS being updated!

Thanks for clarifying, and keep up the great work on Pine!

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From: John Stumbles <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 20:37:39 +0000 (GMT)

On Mon, 21 Feb 1994, Terry Gray wrote:

> running,........

I have never had this work for me with Unix Pine 3.88 - it just says 
	[ ** Empty List ** select here to try Re-Expanding ]
and with PC-PINE 3.89 it hangs the PC :-(.

I can read news with 3.07 using the *newsgroup way of selecting groups.
Is it me or Pine?

BTW I think the line you've shown is wrong - surely the =News *{...
>  news-collections=News *{news.u.washington.edu/nntp}[*]
should be =*{... ??

My .pinerc has:
	news-collections=*{mercury/nntp}[*]
and assuming that 3.07 also reads .pinerc then I think it's correct.

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From: David L Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 13:35:49 -0800 (PST)

John,

What application wrote your .newsrc?  How many groups are subscribed?  If 
you send a copy of your .pinerc and .newsrc files to 
[email-masked] we will take a look and see if we can 
duplicate the problem.  

The "News " is an optional nickname for the collection that will be 
displayed on the FOLDER LIST screen.

Thanks for the report!

--DLM

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From: Martin Beenham <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:10:35 +0000 (WET)

John,

My .pinerc (Not on compcg) has:

news-collections=Internet-News *{compcg.demon.co.uk}[]

Hope this helps.

Regards,