Subject: Re: The Y key

From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 16:58:51 +0000 (GMT)

Terry,

I can't add much to what I've said before; 

1. The changes in interface ("why doesn't my command work anymore") mean
that we're sticking with 3.07 for now. (Our Pine users are the sort of 
people Pine was created for - the gimme-more-features types use other things)

We can't afford to man the phones with crisis counsellors. Most of our 
Pine users are new to Unix and use it mostly for mail. Pine has been a 
huge success in winning people over to Unix. 

2. 3.07's G ^T does lots of what 3.8x's new L does, but we sacrifice 
an essential operation on a semi-intuitive (laser/lineprinter) key. Most
of our novices hardly use folders - for them something arcane just 
elbowed out sometghing vital.

3. Y means yes in Pine. 3.8x needs less yeses (eg on expunge/quit) but 
people hit it anyway. It needs to be innocuous. (These same people major 
on Wordpefect. Saying Y to questions is now hardwired in their minds.)

I'd press you to look at what List Folders gives the user. Using G to mean
Goto Folder List (subtle difference from Goto Folder) and restoring L to
print would be our preferred option (and we may get hacking to make it
look that way here). 

Mike

==============================================================================
Mike Roch, Computer Services Centre,                          Tel: 0734 318430
The University, Whiteknights, Reading, RG6 2AF                Fax: 0734 753094

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 11:26:58 -0800 (PST)

Mike,
Even though I was hoping to keep the "Y" traffic on the list to a minimum
by asking folks to reply to me directly on this topic, you've raised
several important philosophical issues, so I'd like to respond to the  
whole list.

I know that you are upset with the changes we have made, but please
consider the comments I've embedded below... 

> that we're sticking with 3.07 for now. 

That is of course your choice, but newer versions have important bug fixes
as well as feature enhancements.  Some of the characteristics of 3.07
(e.g. the fact that it doesn't correctly type an text attachment) will
cause support problems for other sites, not just yours.  So we'd certainly
like to encourage you to upgrade as soon as possible. 

> (Our Pine users are the sort of 

We don't think we've forgotten the people Pine was created for.  We've
tried very hard to keep the additional feature complexity hidden from the 
base-line users, which is why there are now so many features that can be
enabled by those who wish them.

Regarding features: what we have found is that there are an *infinite*
number of them that people want.  We do get messages just telling us how
much folks like Pine, but we get even more saying "It's great, but it
would be so much better if it just did this one other thing..." 

Therefore, it would seem that either Pine is finding a new audience of
folks who are not completely satisified with the alternative, admittedly
more feature-rich, mailers, or the existing Pine audience is growing in
its feature expectations.  Probably both.  But either way, my impression
is that you are not so upset with new features, since by-and-large they
are invisible unless you ask for them (the "+" in the index being an
exception)... rather, I believe you are upset that we changed the
"perfectly good" Pine user interface. 

Why did we do that?  In the case of L and Y specifically, it had nothing
to do with new features; it was a response to feedback from many people on
this list that there was too much inconsistency in the user-interface. Too
much modality, where a command would work from one screen, but not
another.  So we worked very hard to try to reduce that inconsistency. We
still have some, for example some things are only possible from the main
menu (e.g. address book mtce, keyboard lock).  And there is the necessary
modality between normal commands, and the Control-key commands used in
text-input situations.  But we tried very hard to make the frequently used
commands, and especially the major navigation commands (L,I,G,Q) available
from every screen. 
 
> We can't afford to man the phones with crisis counsellors. 

Nor can we.  That was one of the key motivations behind the Pine project. 

> Most of our 

Same here, though we also use it on some machines where Unix is
deliberately hidden from the user. 
 
> elbowed out sometghing vital.

I think your phrasing way overstates the case.  No functionality has been
lost; the only issue is the muscle memory of the installed base, and how
easily those mental muscles can be re-trained.  We have to keep two issues
distinct: 
 1. Should we have changed Print at all?
 2. Given that we changed it, did we make a good choice for the new Print?

There are clearly sites that feel we chose the alternative key poorly
(and in retrospect I agree, though it is not yet clear that we can/should
change again.)  But so far, yours is the only site that has said "We
refuse to upgrade because you changed Print at all."

At UW we have between 20 and 30,000 Pine users.  Our experience in
installing Pine 3.8x at the beginning of this quarter was that it was not
a big deal.  Even *I* hit L for awhile intending to print, but now its 3
months later, and I don't do that any more.  Most (but not all :) of the
feedback we got was in appreciation of some of the new stuff; to my
recollection we didn't get any "Why did you change Print?" messages, and
as far as I know, the phones didn't ring off the hook for the consultants.
Indeed, when I polled our local support people about changing Y to
something else, the general response was "don't change; it's not been a
problem". 

Reports from other sites indicate similar experiences. That's not to say
we take UI changes lightly; only that I believe you are over-stating the
doom that would occur if you installed 3.8x...

Consider:

  o Many people never considered "L Print" to be mnemonic.
  o Many people use folders far more often than they print.
  o As newsreading via Pine becomes more common, L becomes even more important.
  o G^T is neither equivalent to L, nor as intuitive for novices.
  o If we made G equivalent to L, the folks who like what G does
    would be even more upset than you are.
  o In a year there will probably be more people in the world who never 
    knew that Pine's Print cmd was once "L" than those who do know.
 
> on Wordpefect. Saying Y to questions is now hardwired in their minds.)

And N means no, except, of course, when it means Next...  So it's not a
perfect world; design compromises must be made.  But this brings us to the
question of whether Y was the best alternative to L, and I'm willing to
take some heat on that. 
 
> print would be our preferred option 

The reason we believe the "List Folders" behavior is more suitable for
novices than the "Goto Folder" behavior is that G confronts users with the
dreaded "blinking cursor" situation; that is, it requires input of a
string, as opposed to simply picking from a list.  There's no doubt that G
is an important function --probably more people rely on it than we
originally thought-- but likewise, I suspect more people are using
ListFolders at your site than you realize. 

Note that G^T is not equivalent to L, at least *may* not be, depending on
how folder collections and features are defined.  (G^T will auto-expand
the current collection.  L will either expand none or all of the folder
collections, depending on the .pinerc settings.) And the ^T cases in Pine
are intended to simulate a "popup" browser, analogous to what you might 
find in a GUI app. 

> (and we may get hacking to make it
> look that way here). 

Your choice, certainly... that's why we make source available.  But please
think about investing in a one-time muscle-memory-retraining program (that
others have not found too painful) instead of the prospect of supporting a
different version of Pine forever after.  The code is certainly not
static; we are continuing to evolve Pine as quickly as we can... and
*maybe* even making it "better" in the process :)

Finally, even though we disagree on this issue, I *do* appreciate your 
comments. Nothing gets better without feedback.

-teg

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From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 20:42:02 +0000 (GMT)

Terry,

Ok, it's a fair cop - people can eventually cope with anything. Just a 
couple of points then I'll drop it:

On Fri, 10 Dec 1993, Terry Gray wrote:

> I think your phrasing way overstates the case.
True. By injecting melodrama and playing on your conscience there was 
just a chance I'd make something happen. ;^)

> We do get messages just telling us how
Are you sure that people who subscribe to lists and who are confident 
enough to bug program developers are a representative cross section of 
Pine users?

>   o Many people use folders far more often than they print. 
But how many and which kind of user? Not convinced!

>   o As newsreading via Pine becomes more common, L becomes even more important.
Newsreading! Now there I got really mad - for a year people here have had 
zero-size entries in their mailbox with names like *comp.answers which 
magically gave them newsreading. In 3.8x this magically fails (saying 
Empty folder). They must now 

for i in `ls $HOME/mail/\**`
do
	echo `basename $i|tr '*' ' '`: >> $HOME/.newsrc
done

to stay in the newsreading business. (An unannounced new feature) 

>   o G^T is neither equivalent to L, nor as intuitive for novices.
No but 
>     would be even more upset than you are.
I wonder. They keep the new facility. There'd be some mnemonic value in G 
(Goto Fldr List) and L (Laser/Lineprint)

>     knew that Pine's Print cmd was once "L" than those who do know.
It's getting to look that way ;^)

> string, as opposed to simply picking from a list.  There's no doubt that G
I agree with all that; I'm suggesting that G could take you to the 
Folder List screen. [Return] (after switching collection if required) then 
replaces ^T.
 
> think about investing in a one-time muscle-memory-retraining program (that
			     ^^^^^^^^-- Is that a promise?

If Y => print prevails, how about putting prYnt (yes, that spelling) on
the menu that people see (not the Other one) when reading mail? 

Mike

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From: Mike Ramey <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 07:12:26 -0800 (PST)

> But how many and which kind of user? Not convinced!

Terry, please don't underestimate the importance of the print function.
I use it as a major selling point for pine; users love it.  Thanks for
the fix to print on attached >postscript< printers; big help!!!

> the menu that people see (not the Other one) when reading mail? 

Excellent idea!  Move "V" (View Attachments) to the "Other" menu;
it's out of place on cmd-menu-#1 anyway; too advanced.

I have no trouble with "Y" for print.  If there were a problem with it,
I don't think it is that people print by accident -- that's no biggie;
they 'just say No' to the confirming question.  It -would- be a problem
if people were hitting Y (for print?) and accidentally replying Y to a
question about deleting (or expunging) messages -- which would be 
irreversible!  But apparently that's not what's happening.  

Keep "Y" for "prYnt".  -mr