Subject: The Y key

From: Philip Hazel <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 14:41:09 +0000 (GMT)

This little niggle has now caught me three or four times, so I thought it 
worth reporting.

I had no immediate reservations when you changed the "print" keystroke to 
"Y", but I have now discovered why it might have been a bad idea. I am an 
"old growth" user, and my fingers get into habits. For example, when I want 
to expunge the deleted messages from a folder, I type XY without thinking 
and without pausing. 

On several occasions recently I have either mistyped, or keystrokes have 
got lost, or something, with the effect that a Y keystroke ends up 
reaching Pine unexpectedly. On at least two occasions I haven't noticed 
what it was prompting for**, or else this keyboard has played its trick of 
repeating characters, so that I have actually produced unwanted pieces of 
paper.

I'm sure there is nothing you can do about this, but if ever I write a 
program that relies on Y/N prompting, I shall make sure there is no command 
called Y :-)

This is a small point, however! We appreciate the good work you are doing 
on Pine.

Regards,
Philip

** I do find a lot of the prompts non-useful, and habit makes me reply Y to 
pretty well anything without thinking. Bad habit, I know, but I suspect a 
lot of frequent users act the same. It would be nice to be able to turn 
them off selectively. Then I might pay attention when one did appear...

--
Philip Hazel                   University Computing Service,
[email-masked]             New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG,
[email-masked]          England.  Phone: +44 223 334714

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 08:07:18 -0800 (PST)

Philip,
For what it's worth:

 -In retrospect, I agree that "Y" was a bad choice --one for which I 
  must take most of the blame.

 -You're right, it is probably impossible to change it now, unless there
  is a huge groundswell of support for the idea.

-teg

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From: "D.K.Brownlee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 17:09:12 +0000 (GMT)

Can I start a groundswell for it to be changed? :)

		David

       [email-masked]. Network Analyst. Postmaster. Hostmaster.
         <_.-^-._>  Telephone: (+44) 71 477 8000 Ext:3757.  <_.-^-._>
 Snailmail:E308, City University, Northampton Sq, Islington, London ECIV 0HB.

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From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 17:45:35 +0000 (GMT)

I'd vote for something else. Our users are still on 3.07 but my staff have
commented on the non-intuitive nature of Y (L->laser,lineprinter, etc) and
question the need for a change. Pine has been a roaring succcess here
because of its low-hassle characteristics - changing the method of
performing a key operation is not going to win us any credit.

This change is one of the reasons that we're stalling on releasing 3.8x
until we can redo docs, course notes, etc. 

Perhaps ^something; you have ctrl sequences in pico but not in most of the
dialogue screens so you'd be more or less free to choose what you want.

Why use L for folder list and not ^F; people have to use ^P/^N to switch
folder collections.

Mike

==============================================================================
Mike Roch, Computer Services Centre,                          Tel: 0734 318430
The University, Whiteknights, Reading, RG6 2AF                Fax: 0734 753094

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From: Terry Gray <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 10:26:43 -0800 (PST)

On Fri, 26 Nov 1993, Mike Roch wrote:

> Pine has been a roaring succcess here

Mike,
This is exactly why changing it *again* would be so problematic!
 
> dialogue screens so you'd be more or less free to choose what you want.

We've tried *very* hard to limit use of control characters to pico, or
other places where you are at a prompt requiring text input.  

Some of the control keys for navigation may also be used as an *alternative*
outside pico, e.g. ^P/^N, ^Y/^V...)
 
> Why use L for folder list and not ^F; people have to use ^P/^N to switch

Again, we'd like to avoid *forcing* the use of control keys outside of
text-input situations.  (We already get enough flack from those who prefer
modal editors, e.g. vi, and consider it a mistake to use *any* control
characters.)

The theory behind ^P/^N is that they are supposed to be, in all cases,
synonyms for up-arrow and down-arrow.  However, I recently noticed that 
the arrow keys on my X terminal don't work to select prev/next collection.
That's a bug.

I believe the decsion to change L to list folders was correct; it is a
very important screen and one that we needed to make more pervasively and
easily accessible throughout Pine.  But Print is also important, hence the
dilemma. 

We will keep considering options; additional feedback on whether to even
consider making yet another key change would be appreciated.

-teg

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From: Dan Schlitt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 13:56:41 -0500 (EST)

I agree with those folks who are saying that the choice is a bad one.  It
would be a good idea to change it to something better.  And I favor
changing it back to L for print.

/dan

Dan Schlitt                           School of Engineering Computer Systems
[email-masked]        City College of New York
(212)650-6760                         New York, NY 10031

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From: Paul Ribeiro <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 14:31:54 -0500 (EST)

> consider making yet another key change would be appreciated.
I understand the dilema you face, however, I think that if a change is
going to be made to the print key it should be done as quickly as possible
before to many people get used to the new assignment. Here we are not
going production 3.88 until January to give people a chance to test
the new software and become accustomed to the keys. There has been a
lot of praise (well deserved) and only one complaint..you guessed it,
people accidentally printing files because the status messages now
have a delay so that most people "type ahead" :-)
/P

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From: "Darryl Friesen (4758)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 13:35:23 -0600 (CST)

> changing it back to L for print.
                      ^     ^^^^^

But L for Print is just as unintuitive as Y for Print.  I think the user
will get used to either (just as I have become used to Y).

I think the BEST choice (the most intuitive at least) would, of course,
be P for Print.  However, with N for Next Msg, P for Previous Msg seems
a better choice.

It's cliche, but "you can't please everyone".  I certainly don't envy
you Pine developers.  [maybe we need a new alphabet with more letters :)
or we should all learn a different language, where ther are less
abiquities between things like Print, Previous, List, LinePrinter etc :) ]

> (212)650-6760                         New York, NY 10031

- Darryl

  ------------------------------------------------------------
         Darryl Friesen        |       Client Services        
    [email-masked]    |  Dept of Computing Services  
    [email-masked]     |  University of Saskatchewan  
  ------------------------------------------------------------
  "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy 
   and good with ketchup."    (seen in rec.arts.books.tolkien)

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From: Ian Dunkin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 19:54:29 +0000 (GMT)

I too encounter the `accidental' XY problem, typing ahead in an 
attempt to expunge and confirm the expunging, when not in Index mode.

But this isn't a problem with Y being print; just that, for some reason,
X doesn't work in Index mode; for example, when having just read and 
deleted a message.  (Could it not?)

  I.

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From: "Amos A. Gouaux" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 17:28:08 -0600 (CST)

> abiquities between things like Print, Previous, List, LinePrinter etc :) ]

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with this one.  Yes, "Y" is 
not very intuitive for print.  However, I have found that being able to 
navigate through my folders to be much more important.  I like very much 
the inclusion of the "L" command.  I'm also not very worried about our 
users being confused by it, particularly considering that the handy menu 
is right at the bottom of their screen.  As long as the menu is there, I 
don't see it likely to be an issue, at least not here.

  Amos A. Gouaux        Academic Computing Services         [email-masked]
  UNIX and CUTCP        University of North Texas           817/565-4898
  Systems Support       PO Box 13495, Denton, TX 76203      FAX at -4060

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From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1993 14:29:59 +0000 (GMT)

> navigate through my folders to be much more important.  I like very much 
Changing the command key won't prevent this.

> is right at the bottom of their screen.  As long as the menu is there, I 
Funny, neither prynt nor save are right there on my screen. Luckily I'm not 
a novice [you know, the guys Pine was designed for] so I guess I could track 
them down in order to discover why the L command I've used for 18 months 
now "makes my mail messages disappear" etc.

Mike

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From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1993 15:50:04 +0000 (GMT)

> will get used to either (just as I have become used to Y).
Not quite, as you point out further on :-
> abiquities between things like Print, Previous, List, LinePrinter etc :) ]
							^^^^^^^^^^^
				<---------- Y free zone ------------>

More importantly, people have already absorbed the earlier key. People, 
especially novices, don't like systems to change under their feet.

I was very happy with G for "Goto folders"; putting G onto the Main Menu
in place of F would have produced the consistency sought without
introducing the Y problems. 

Mike

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From: "Jason R. Thorpe" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT)

>   is a huge groundswell of support for the idea.

I wouldn't mind making such a change...Perhaps SHIFT-something...like > 
(SHIFT-.) and sorta like redirecting output or something...Just a 
suggestion...

> > them off selectively. Then I might pay attention when one did appear...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason R. Thorpe          |     'All standard...'     |    434 Weatherford Hall
OSU Computer Science     |    [email-masked]    |     Corvallis, OR 97331
Support Staff            |  '...disclaimers apply.'  |          (503) 737-9533

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From: David Broudy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 09:22:15 -0700 (MST)

add one vote to the groundswell.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+  David Broudy, Computer Manager, Ofc Medical Investigator  +
+  UNM School of Medicine, Albuquerque, NM 87131-5091        +
+  505/277-3234,3053 242-7108  [email-masked]        +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: "Amos A. Gouaux" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 11:37:56 -0600 (CST)

> (SHIFT-.) and sorta like redirecting output or something...Just a 

A thought has come to mind on this matter.

Perhaps the pine team provided ListFldrs as a means to get to the folders
without having to use a control sequence, such as is necessary with Goto. 
If so, perhaps the Goto command could be slightly modified.  Instead of
immediately asking for a folder name, maybe provide a small menu that had
"regular" keys, such as "L" to ListFldrs.  To actually make a selection,
the "S" key (for Specify) would have to be pressed, though it could be the
default.  So, to get to the INBOX, one could press "G" for Goto, then
press RETURN twice instead of once.  It would add steps to the Goto
process, but it might mean that "L" could be used for Print as before. 

Pressing "G" for Goto could produce the following menu:

GOTO command:
? Help   P PrevFldr   L ListFldrs   E ExitGoto
         N NextFldr   S [Specify]  

Then pressing "S" or RETURN could yield:

GOTO folder in <Incoming Message Fol> [INBOX] :
^G Help        ^C Cancel
RETURN Enter   TAB Complete

Now, would the extra steps really be worth it????   While I like the 
convenience of having both the "G" and "L" commands as they are currently 
arranged, I can see that having both is almost redundant.

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From: Mike Roch <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 21:43:40 +0000 (GMT)

> arranged, I can see that having both is almost redundant.

I think that last is the key point. From the Message Index or Message Text
viewer, L[Enter] and G^T get you to a functionally similar place.  If G
replaced the new L, I think you'd get better continuity from 3.0x and lose
very little functionality, especially if a "C Collection-list" (taking you
to the current "FOLDER LIST" screen) was added to the "GOTO:SELECT 
FOLDER" screen that G^T gives you. 

L as used in 3.8x contributes little (Listing folders when you don't want
to Goto one of them??) and has displaced a command used by lots of novices
all the time (printing's very important to them, _they_ often feel safer
with hard copy). 

Mike

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From: Barry Landy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 21:57:05 +0000 (GMT)

>   Systems Support       PO Box 13495, Denton, TX 76203      FAX at -4060

Irrespective of the goodness or otherwise of Y for print, I think this is
a disastrous idea; the current behaviour of G is very ergonomic; adding 
an extra step in the sequence for getting between folders would be horrific!
 
In my view, for people who use folders seriously, GOTO is a fairly
frequent activity; I do not believe (and for the sake of the trees I hope
I'm right!) that people print half so often. Possibly a number of
relatively rare commands could be bundled together under "X" for eXtras,
with a subselection menu (in the same way as System has been done). 

=======================================================================
Barry Landy, Head of Systems and Development,
University of Cambridge Computing Service
[email-masked]      0223-334713   +44-223-334713

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From: Erik Lawaetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 09:22:10 +0100 (MET)

Please, change as little as possible. We're producing documentation in 
our national language so we rely on things being as stable as possible. 

--Erik